I'm pretty sure these tanks are at least more than 20 years old. The PLA does not need 8,000 tanks in its arsenal (unlike the U.S. military), so maybe it is time to get rid of the type 59s armed with 100mm guns. Or maybe upgrade them to 59D, but the 59D is already obsolete when compared to what Russia and India have. It China were to rearm, I guess a wiser choice would be to replace these 2,200 obsolete tanks with type 96Gs or 99A2 (or the "Chinese Armata," if R&D and production go smoothly).
All newType-59 thread
- Thread starter King_Comm
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This depends on the type of vest (or insert). Traditional "soft" kevlar vests had 5-10 year warranty and the manufacturer recommends replacing after 5 years of active use. However many police departments had vests that were 10-20 years old and they stood up to testing vs pistol caliber rounds just fine.
However, for the military they need "hard" plates (steel or ceramic) to resist rifle rounds, and those typically do not have expiration dates. Hard ballistic plates are heavy, a vest with front, back, and side plates can easily add up to 30-40+ lbs, and that's in addition to all the other gear (helmet, rifle, ammo, rations, water, radio, etc) that adds up to another 40 lbs.
antiterror13
Brigadier
Actually China needs much more tanks than the US. The US borders only Canada and Mexico, no threat from these two countries and they are very weak militarily. OTH China borders 14 countries, some of them very unstable, China do need a lot of tanks.
The US have many tanks because of her role as "the police" of the world, not to defend the mother land. It appears that China has no intention to pursue that role
59D is obsolete compared to the Russians one and not at all compared to many of Indians tanks. 59D is not obsolete compared to 12 Chinese bordering countries
Josh, I respect your opinions of Type 59, but I don't agree with your opinions. Money/fund is a big part of the equation. PLA strategy of still deploying Type 59/D is superb, eventually all will get replaced with more modern ones, but no rush as tank technology also advancing every year and there is no need to replace Type 59 quickly. Keep upgrading is the best approach
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I would pare down practically that entire list given that most RPG models or similar weapons can take out a Type 59. And remember China's hundred years of shame was not about being unable to handle its neighbors militarily, it's about being unable to handle aggressors from around the world.
I agree with your assessment of PLA armor deployment. Just to clarify one thing. From what I know, the Indian Army has roughly 2,500 upgraded T-72s (roughly the same number of Type 96s in the PLA), 1,250 T-90s (1,600 by 2020), and roughly 200 Arjuns. Total: close to 4,000 third generation MBTs. The PLA has 2,500 type 96 series, 500 type 99s, and 100 type 99A2s. Total: 3,100 third generation MBTs. The other 5,000 consists type 59s and their successors like type 79, 88, 59D. I doubted a type 59D could have a equal fight with an upgraded T-72 (Ajeya), but I guess 2-3 type 59s could pit against one T-72, especially if the formers' 105mm guns fire modern Tungsten or DU kinetic penetrators. What do you think?
kwaigonegin
Colonel
The type 59 is obsolete. There is really no reason to try and defend that assertion. Modern weapons and RPGs can easily kill it. Effectiveness is all relative anyway. A chariot and spear can be an effective weapon system as well.
Compared to ships, jets etc tanks are relatively cheap and easy to mass produce. There is no excuse the Type 59 is still in front line active serve in 2015. Lol.
When you have a tank that can be easily defeated and out gunned and outranged by pretty much all anti armor weaponry, all of them needs to be phased out soon. Your replacement strategy should not hinge on the the unlikelihood of foreign land invasion.
Compared to ships, jets etc tanks are relatively cheap and easy to mass produce. There is no excuse the Type 59 is still in front line active serve in 2015. Lol.
When you have a tank that can be easily defeated and out gunned and outranged by pretty much all anti armor weaponry, all of them needs to be phased out soon. Your replacement strategy should not hinge on the the unlikelihood of foreign land invasion.
Chinese "tank junkyard"
U.S. "tank junkyard"
Now you see the difference between a country that constantly modernizes its armor force and one that still uses 30-years old junks. I am pretty sure China does not need 7,000 to 9,000 ZTZ-99A2s, but the fact that type 59s are still in service, while India possesses more third generation MBTs means that the PLA armor divisions need urgent modernization, even if it meant shrinking the current force more than 8,000 tanks to less than 6,000 (just to get rid of the 59s, while fielding several more battalions of 99s/96s).
vesicles
Colonel
I don't think we should compare China with the U.S. The U.S. Has been continuously upgrading its armed forces since the beginning. Ever since the end of the WWII, the U.S. has been advancing its military technology nonstop. China, on the other hand, only began to upgrade its military in the 1990's. It was lagging behind by almost half a century. With such a massive force (and I emphasize MASSIVE. China needs such a large force because it is a MASSIVE country with a large population and many unfriendly neighbors) that needs to be upgraded, China has to set a priority.
And China has decided that its navy and Air Force need more immediately attention since these branches lagged behind more. Even more importantly, the navy and the Air Force are almost like force multipliers. An army without the support of Air Force and navy is completely exposed. All those world-class tanks will be sitting ducks to enemy choppers, attack/fighters and bombers. thato is why China has been investing huge amount of resources in developing ships and planes. I can safely say that every China watcher has been appalled by how fast they have been churning out world-class fighters, bombers, UAV's, battle ships, CVs, etc.
It is completely illogical to think that China can simultaneously upgrade ALL its army, navy and Air Force equipment, personnel along with everything to the level where the U.S. Is now. It is equally illogical to expect China to accomplish all this within a span of 20 years.
Also bear in mind that China's defense budget is much smaller than that of the U.S., even using the most generous estimates by Western sources assuming that China has hid a lot of its defense budget. So, with such a short amount of time and limited budget, I think it is nothing short of amazing that China has achieved what they achieved up to this point. And I am certain that China is not stopping any time soon. And I think the PLA also agrees that it is still lagging behind in many areas. And it is working hard to correct them in a timely fashion. We just have to give them time.
Again, keep in mind that they have had a limited budget and they have been doing this for only 20 years. Like that old Chinese saying, you cannot become a one-ton giant with only one bite of food. You have to let them eat, one bite at a time.
It's like someone came up to baby Yao Ming 30 years ago when he was only a 3 ft baby and told him: "I am so disappointed at you! How come you are still this little while Wilt Chamberlain is already 7 ft tall???" What can baby Yao Ming say?
And China has decided that its navy and Air Force need more immediately attention since these branches lagged behind more. Even more importantly, the navy and the Air Force are almost like force multipliers. An army without the support of Air Force and navy is completely exposed. All those world-class tanks will be sitting ducks to enemy choppers, attack/fighters and bombers. thato is why China has been investing huge amount of resources in developing ships and planes. I can safely say that every China watcher has been appalled by how fast they have been churning out world-class fighters, bombers, UAV's, battle ships, CVs, etc.
It is completely illogical to think that China can simultaneously upgrade ALL its army, navy and Air Force equipment, personnel along with everything to the level where the U.S. Is now. It is equally illogical to expect China to accomplish all this within a span of 20 years.
Also bear in mind that China's defense budget is much smaller than that of the U.S., even using the most generous estimates by Western sources assuming that China has hid a lot of its defense budget. So, with such a short amount of time and limited budget, I think it is nothing short of amazing that China has achieved what they achieved up to this point. And I am certain that China is not stopping any time soon. And I think the PLA also agrees that it is still lagging behind in many areas. And it is working hard to correct them in a timely fashion. We just have to give them time.
Again, keep in mind that they have had a limited budget and they have been doing this for only 20 years. Like that old Chinese saying, you cannot become a one-ton giant with only one bite of food. You have to let them eat, one bite at a time.
It's like someone came up to baby Yao Ming 30 years ago when he was only a 3 ft baby and told him: "I am so disappointed at you! How come you are still this little while Wilt Chamberlain is already 7 ft tall???" What can baby Yao Ming say?
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antiterror13
Brigadier
I would bet Type 059 latest model would beat original T-72. Only less than 1,000 Indians T-72 have been upgraded and the others have not