Alexander VS Qin dynasty

Speeder

Junior Member
The discussion is pointless. For whatever reason there's a strong believe that the Qin army must have been superior to everyone else globally.

Watch above TV series yourself. Even you may not be able to understand Chinese, at least get a taste of how those high tech weaponaries look like - and their quantity in millions. Then imagine what kind of high tech mass production AND personalisation facilities they represent, and the friggin sizes of them (think in terms of the underlying economy and sophistication of industralisation - yes, it got to be some kind of industrialisation going on - that they underline), alongwith the corresponding humongous logistics & its sophistication that Qin army enjoyed. Show us what Alexander had in response? It's not even funny.
 
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shen

Senior Member
Will someone be kind enough to do the rough translation?

The following is one of numerous episodes of a Taiwanese TV programme showcasing some of the newest discoveries on the high tech of Qin's terracotta army. Numerous Qin military technologies were so cutting edgely high tech that it would fit more with technologies from 19th century on to the current day!

Just step back and picture that Qin's vast army with these high tech 2,200 friggin years ago...

Alexander VS Qin = Somalia VS USA, prehaps this is not an overstatement, at all?


[video=youtube;x__99wPWkDs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x__99wPWkDs[/video]


I didn't realize the Taiwanese are actually so much more Chinese nationalist than the mainland Chinese. That TV show is a bit silly really. The Taiwanese expert claims that Qin weapons and armors were so superior, wait for this.....they must have been made by aliens. no other explanation.
oh, the armor they spent so much talking about. is not a actually battle armor. it is a ceremonial funeral armor made from jade. but these "experts" didn't seem to realize that.
much time is also spent talking about the length of Chinese bronze sword. yes, Chinese bronze technology was superior, but that's because bronze age lasted much longer in China. China didn't have something like the Late Bronze Age Collapse experienced in the Mediterranean world. China had much longer time to refine bronze casting and weapons when the Middle East and Europe already move to iron tools and weapons. Of course, after iron age finally came to China, Chinese went directly to the much more efficient blast furnace method rather than the bloomery process the rest of the world was stuck with.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
I didn't realize the Taiwanese are actually so much more Chinese nationalist than the mainland Chinese. That TV show is a bit silly really. The Taiwanese expert claims that Qin weapons and armors were so superior, wait for this.....they must have been made by aliens. no other explanation.
oh, the armor they spent so much talking about. is not a actually battle armor. it is a ceremonial funeral armor made from jade. but these "experts" didn't seem to realize that.
much time is also spent talking about the length of Chinese bronze sword. yes, Chinese bronze technology was superior, but that's because bronze age lasted much longer in China. China didn't have something like the Late Bronze Age Collapse experienced in the Mediterranean world. China had much longer time to refine bronze casting and weapons when the Middle East and Europe already move to iron tools and weapons. Of course, after iron age finally came to China, Chinese went directly to the much more efficient blast furnace method rather than the bloomery process the rest of the world was stuck with.

Well, do a proper translation, and to be fair, the statement about aliens is from a statement: if people believe that aliens created the pryeimids of Gaza, then, they must have created Qinshihuan's amory too"

1) this program is based on the new armory recently discovered in the Qinshihuang tombs.
2) the armor shown is made of stone; elaborating from other reports, this helmet is quite ergonomic with a slot in the side that allows adjustments of the helmet to allow the eyes to see out for different wearers. the body armor is 600 unique pieces of plate strung together with wire - with egronomic flex joints (i am not sure if this is true or to what extent) estimated to take mordern people to use 344-444 days to manufacture. 5,000,000.00 plates were found in the tomb, (so around 80,000 suits of armor?)
3) the armory showed signs of ancient water and fire damage
4) found 91 cm bronze sword that doesn't break as bronze swords are known to
5) swords are chromium plated.. a techology is only known known in the west in the 1900s
6) cross bow with a 300m range, accurate range of 150m
7) arrow heads (chinese crossbows do not use bolts) are parabolic point in design; 40,000 arrow heads had been found in the tomb to date; alll were "identical"
8) the bronze charriot is made up of 5000 cast peices that fits together suggesting a high degree of bronze casting knowledge (this is true, when I was casting engine blocks in university in Canada, casting failure rate is quite high), the wire castings were 0.5mm, which is quite thin,
 

shen

Senior Member
Well, do a proper translation, and to be fair, the statement about aliens is from a statement: if people believe that aliens created the pryeimids of Gaza, then, they must have created Qinshihuan's amory too"

1) this program is based on the new armory recently discovered in the Qinshihuang tombs.
2) the armor shown is made of stone; elaborating from other reports, this helmet is quite ergonomic with a slot in the side that allows adjustments of the helmet to allow the eyes to see out for different wearers. the body armor is 600 unique pieces of plate strung together with wire - with egronomic flex joints (i am not sure if this is true or to what extent) estimated to take mordern people to use 344-444 days to manufacture. 5,000,000.00 plates were found in the tomb, (so around 80,000 suits of armor?)
3) the armory showed signs of ancient water and fire damage
4) found 91 cm bronze sword that doesn't break as bronze swords are known to
5) swords are chromium plated.. a techology is only known known in the west in the 1900s
6) cross bow with a 300m range, accurate range of 150m
7) arrow heads (chinese crossbows do not use bolts) are parabolic point in design; 40,000 arrow heads had been found in the tomb to date; alll were "identical"
8) the bronze charriot is made up of 5000 cast peices that fits together suggesting a high degree of bronze casting knowledge (this is true, when I was casting engine blocks in university in Canada, casting failure rate is quite high), the wire castings were 0.5mm, which is quite thin,

the stone armor is not battle armor! many stone or jade armor have been discovered in ancient Chinese graves. ancient Chinese believe jade had magical protective qualities. that's why they made funeral armor from it. but they didn't try to use stone armor on the battlefield!

ancient Chinese bronze sword were longer because they used bronze of different tin content in different parts of the blade. lower tin bronze is softer and tough. higher tin bronze is harder but more brittle. chrome plating was probably to prevent corrosion, but more probably a pure decorative practice. BTW, the sword in the video is not even from the Qin period. that's the famous Sword of Goujian, from hundreds of years before the Qin period.
that chariot was also a ceremonial chariot. a four horse bronze chariot would've been far too unwieldy for real battlefield use. by the Qin period, chariots weren't a serious weapon platform, more status symbols.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
the stone armor is not battle armor! many stone or jade armor have been discovered in ancient Chinese graves. ancient Chinese believe jade had magical protective qualities. that's why they made funeral armor from it. but they didn't try to use stone armor on the battlefield!

ancient Chinese bronze sword were longer because they used bronze of different tin content in different parts of the blade. lower tin bronze is softer and tough. higher tin bronze is harder but more brittle. chrome plating was probably to prevent corrosion, but more probably a pure decorative practice. BTW, the sword in the video is not even from the Qin period. that's the famous Sword of Goujian, from hundreds of years before the Qin period.
that chariot was also a ceremonial chariot. a four horse bronze chariot would've been far too unwieldy for real battlefield use. by the Qin period, chariots weren't a serious weapon platform, more status symbols.

Shen, With all due respect to your enthusiasm,

We don't know if the stone armor was used in combat or not. I highly doubt that they had been used in combat. Stone suits of armor were found in China, but previously only from the Han dynasty. Given that the Qin dynasty is before the Han, there lies the significance.

The chariot shown was a command and control chariot, not a combat one by far.
 

Speeder

Junior Member
the stone armor is not battle armor! many stone or jade armor have been discovered in ancient Chinese graves. ancient Chinese believe jade had magical protective qualities. that's why they made funeral armor from it. but they didn't try to use stone armor on the battlefield!

ancient Chinese bronze sword were longer because they used bronze of different tin content in different parts of the blade. lower tin bronze is softer and tough. higher tin bronze is harder but more brittle. chrome plating was probably to prevent corrosion, but more probably a pure decorative practice. BTW, the sword in the video is not even from the Qin period. that's the famous Sword of Goujian, from hundreds of years before the Qin period.
that chariot was also a ceremonial chariot. a four horse bronze chariot would've been far too unwieldy for real battlefield use. by the Qin period, chariots weren't a serious weapon platform, more status symbols.

1. stone armor: they wouldn't produce a brand new design just for the tomb, would they? Those stone armor however were based on the real armor, isn't a simple logic ? Futher, the emphasis here are

-A. the flexible design that fits right into modern human body studies, akin to modern age armory design.

-B. the sheer amount of time consumed to make such armors today : 344-444 days per armor. And those holes (square and round shaped) of 800 pieces were connected together by hair-thin metal strings!! Whatever Qin was doing, its military mass production facility must be humongous to produce just that 8,000 stone armors for the already-discovered part of the tomb alone (surely there could be more, or much more such armors in the undisvoered parts of the tomb, and those were not the only armors that Qin produced at a time which included the real armors for the entire army, logically were only a tiny fraction of them). They should be identical to the real metal armor, because like everything else Qin emperor wanted a REAL DEAL for everything in his tomb to protect him in afterlife, not some fancy models. So, imagine the true size and high tech - streamlined process of the production, quality control and size of the real military complex and underlying skills and economy size they reflect - that's the point.


2. On those >90cm bronde swords: the keys are

-A. chromium plated high tech deployed was 2,000 friggin years ahead of anything Alexander could come up with. That was only the known part of Qin's technologies. Are you certain that was the only part? It was so advanced of its time that makes you wonder what's more in the undiscovered tomb that we don't know yet.

-B. Alexander used bronze weaponaries? short bronze swords <60cm. Which side do you think would be slaughtered if an equal number of infantries from Qin and Alexander confronting each other, one using 90cm swords while the other 60cm?


3. those 2 life-size bronze chariots unearthed: assembled together by 8,000 standard pieces! including the tiny bronze metal strings placed under horses' mouthes - as thin as human hair. What kind of friggin technologies to produce those 2,200 years ago? Go to a 21th century mass production weapon factory, say, a M-16 rifle factory, do they have 8,000 pieces for one M-16? 800? or 80 pieces? What do 8,000 standard sub-pieces mean to you? Go to a Leopard MBT facotry in Germany today, do they have 8,000 standard sub-pieces for 1 tank? Or go to a Toyota factory and ask them the same question. Again, just pause a moment here to imagine the sheer sophitication in industrial design, production processing ( including Just-In-Time style stock delivery known from Toyota in modern time), degrees of modernity implied in these factories just for production and assembling of these 8, 000 standard pieces, and the sheer standard of quality control... underlined by those 2 "simple" bronze chariots. Yes, they were just command&control chariots, not combat ones, but technologies they represent would make the combat ones worse, the same or even better? Did Alexander have anything remotely similar?

4. on the 40,000 (from only already discovered part of the tomb )parabolic arrow heads that were indeed modern bullet-alike, imagine the sheer accuracy of these suckers! the sheer deadly piecing strengh after combining them with crossbows (almost a semi-automatic machine gun), multiply that with Qin's huge @rse numbers. How could it be possible for Alexander to deal with Qin's quality and quantity? Furthermore, what most impressed me is the margin of error of mass production of these arrow heads' parabliv shapes, which is said to be measured in terms of about 0.1cm - almost equivalent of making them again using modern production machinaries. In other words: 40,000 friggin "IDENTICAL bullets"! Picture that.


Above are only a small part of known FACTS (proven by the ongoing new discoveries of relics of the tomb), not hearsays, of Qin's awesome high tech of designs, numerous advanced industrial knowhow centries ahead of its time, and nevertheless Qin's HUGE ars# military complex production facilities a bit akin to today's USA+China putting together in relative terms. What Alexander had at a time to match these in any shape and colour?

Somalia Vs USA?


.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
Thanks for the laughs.
The Iron Age started in the Near East and the Mediterranean a millenium before it reached China during the last part of the Warring States period. That's quite a long time to catch up on latest technology.
 

shen

Senior Member
Thanks for the laughs.
The Iron Age started in the Near East and the Mediterranean a millenium before it reached China during the last part of the Warring States period. That's quite a long time to catch up on latest technology.

Iron technology spread to Europe and China at around the same time from the Central Asian region. The difference is that bronze civilization never collapsed in China as it did in the West. So Chinese continued to produce large number of bronze objects at the same time iron technology developed. By 500 BC, Chinese applied their advanced bronze smelting technology to iron smelting and develop the far more efficient blast furnace process thousands of years before Europe had anything similar.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Alexander's Armies had gay sex and a lot of them do. It was common in Greek society that an adult male and a teenage male to have a relationship with each other until that teenage reaches adulthood and expected to be married in a heterosexual relationship. No I'm not writing this out of hate for homosexuals are anything like that, just wanted to point out the obvious historical facts that's being missed out in this thread. And if a question comes down to which army would you rather go back in time to be in with? I would choose the Qin in a heart beat, sorry no offense to any gays out there.



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Kurt

Junior Member
Iron technology spread to Europe and China at around the same time from the Central Asian region. The difference is that bronze civilization never collapsed in China as it did in the West. So Chinese continued to produce large number of bronze objects at the same time iron technology developed. By 500 BC, Chinese applied their advanced bronze smelting technology to iron smelting and develop the far more efficient blast furnace process thousands of years before Europe had anything similar.

What a great nitwit discussion. Iron metallurgy was invented in the region of Anatolia and the Caucasus and in use during the Bronze Age 2000 BC (iron production was a Hittite secret like silk/paper production was a Chinese one) as a precious metal more valuable than gold. The transition to the Iron Age in Western Euraisa and North Africa is marked by the widespread use that happens in China a millenium later. The furthest fringes of Europe were reached earlier than the transition did happen in China with its highly developed bronze technology. This does indeed have to do with local availability of iron versus secure supply routes for copper and tin. However, the so called Iron age was heavily dependant on bronze equipment with decreasing use at iron technology progressed, allowing for a lighter metal construction. China did have limits on availability of metal objects until they introduced iron in the wake of raising ever larger armies that could not be supplied through the usual channels for bronze. The Bronze Age / Iron Age traditions seems globally marked by a reduced reliance on few select (noble warriors) with Bronze equipment and strong chariot component versus a larger more militia-like force with iron equipment on foot. This transition with the corresponding many social and technological changes did happen quite late in Eastern Asia that was not under pressure by competing empires. The Chinese simply did see no use for the iron technology that reached them as the process needed technological refinement in order to compete in quality with the highly developed bronze technology.
 
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