antiterror13
Brigadier
You had been suspended 2 months ago ... please don't repeat the same mistakes
AL-31F / FN in China and background
- Thread starter Hyperwarp
- Start date
You had been suspended 2 months ago ... please don't repeat the same mistakes
Interesting; I noted a similar report concerning 100 additional AL-31 - but not mentioning the specific version - yesterday ... any (sorry to say so) better or more reliable source than Your Japanese link ?
I think the Russian media would go full hype if this is true?
Deino
I honestly don't see how this necessarily has any bearing on the status of the WS-10, given that we have a 170+ fleet of original flankers, 100+ assembled from kits, and the new build of J-15s and J-10B/Cs, all of which need Al-31s of one stripe or another.
Even of WS-10 magically becomes completely reliable tomorrow, China would still be importing Al-31 for a at least a decade, if only until it's time to either retire or do a serious mid-life overhaul of all the original and licence-built Flankers. And even them I am not 100% convinced it's necessarily worth the expense to re-engine the older Flankers.
Even of WS-10 magically becomes completely reliable tomorrow, China would still be importing Al-31 for a at least a decade, if only until it's time to either retire or do a serious mid-life overhaul of all the original and licence-built Flankers. And even them I am not 100% convinced it's necessarily worth the expense to re-engine the older Flankers.
There has also been a similar on-again, off-again discussions about whether the Chinese purchase of Su-35 means that J-11 variants in general suck. Neither side of the debate just could detach the Su-35 purchase emotionally from the status of J-11's, or even the status of the entire Chinese military aircraft industry.
b787
Captain
the question is how many Al-31s have been sold before 2016 and how many Flankers have been sold by Russia?
Do your sums and math, according to Russian media China bought 1000 Al-31s up to 2013
So i am asking you how many times you can re-engine the Russian made Flankers? how many J-10s you can build and re-engine, the math will tell you this, 1000+100, means you can re-engine 4 times the Flannker Chinese fleet or 2 times the Flanker fleet and at least 1 time 300 J-10s, make your numbers.
Remember these are spares the Flankers built in Russia had its own Al-31, no need to buy spares, also you are claiming WS-10 is very reliable, thus no Chinese J-11B or what ever clone after J-11s use it
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Ok let do rough unscientific calc. China has bought roughly 200 SU 27 and another 100 SU 27 MKK add to that the 100 J11A built using AL31F engine So total roughly 350 to 400 SU series of plane multiply by 2 Total 700 engine
The old one has been operating since 1985 The latest one was received around 2000 So just make it simple average it 1985+15/2=1992. Now it is 2016 So they have been operating for 18 or 20 years . Or 1000 weeks.That is a lot of mileage. Since the lifetime of AL31 Engine is around 1500 hr
That translate into roughly 1.5 hr per week flying time or 3 X 30 min sorties per week which is reasonable
So those engine need to be replaced by now
Now using your number which is on higher side 1100-700 that only 400 left subtract that about 300 use for J 10 engine Not much
left!
Anyone has better number or better methodology please comment
The old one has been operating since 1985 The latest one was received around 2000 So just make it simple average it 1985+15/2=1992. Now it is 2016 So they have been operating for 18 or 20 years . Or 1000 weeks.That is a lot of mileage. Since the lifetime of AL31 Engine is around 1500 hr
That translate into roughly 1.5 hr per week flying time or 3 X 30 min sorties per week which is reasonable
So those engine need to be replaced by now
Now using your number which is on higher side 1100-700 that only 400 left subtract that about 300 use for J 10 engine Not much
left!
Anyone has better number or better methodology please comment
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b787
Captain
you are full of mistakes
To start China never got the Su-27 in 1985, the Soviet Union did, the bulk of Chinese Flankers were gotten after 2000, around 2004-2007, after China bought the license.The Flakers China bought directly from Russia had a pair of Al-31 included, the 1100 engines are spares or for the J-10
If China has bought 170 Su-30s/Su-27SK, you are adding to 1100+340 engines, China also used 208 Al-31s for the J-11s built in 2004-2007 (here i mention the Al-31s used on J-11As were included in the licensed, but perhaps were signed independently)
So the numbers are 1100 minus 208 minus 340 minus 208 if you say China has not decommissioned old Flankers and China has changed engines to the original license flanker clones , that gives you roughly 760 +240 used on J-10s, however the J-10 have been built even in 2016 or 2008, trying to justify that China changes engines after a decade is blantly ludicrous,
Why is ridiculous? first limits the number of Al-31s used on J-10s to 240 and it says aircraft built in 2010 onward are changing engines after merely 4-5 years, also Flankers built in 2006 will be changing engines after a ridiculous 10 year period, there are aircraft built in the 1980s that can be used with old engines, a 2006 aircraft does not need a pair of engines since most of these aircraft fly subsonic missions.
Second even if the change engines what engine powers J-20? how are you going start low rate production and with what engine?
Has J-20 flown post stall? no it has not, has it shown TVC nozzles? is it flying on WS-15, further more the Al-31s were purchased along engines for Y-20/Il-76, close to 224 D-30KP2, so tell me how ,many Il-76s are they going to re-engine?
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
You are the one that need to check you r number. You don't have a clue that engine suffer fatigue and creep. So it has a service life time. Ok I revise my number based on global security data I am off a bit First time SU 27 received was in 1992 the last one was in 2004. So the using average starting operation of 1998 The average the SU 27 has been operated since 1998. That is 18 years of operation . The lifetime life of AL31 is 1500 hr So assuming 3 sorties per week of 30 minute that work out 18X52X1.5=1400 hr. Every engine has a life once it passed the limit you have to discard it It is not the same like car.
So basically all those 350 Plane need to be re engine
Total engine required is 700 engine add to that the 300 engine used for J 10 that is 1000 engine
So no wonder they need to buy engine again
Since China received its first 4th-generation Su-27 fighter in 1992, training, tactics and operational concepts progressed slowly as China integrated the new technologies and capabilities into the force structure. This protracted learning phase has allowed China to prepare for the introduction of larger numbers of 4th-generation aircraft into its inventories. By 2002 new Su-27s and Su-30s had been more rapidly integrated into operational units. Meanwhile, air combat tactics continue to evolve and training became more advanced.
Jane's Defence Weekly reported on March 31, 2004 that by early 2004, China had received some 154 Sukhoi aircraft (this number does not include roughly 100 aircraft built in China), mostly Su-27SK fighters, and that by the end of 2004 roughly 273 Sukhoi fighters would be in service.
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