AL-31F / FN in China and background

Hyperwarp · Oct 20, 2016

Deino said:
...
2. If the Su-35 per Your definition uses a supercruise-capale engine and we are now assuming by these latest reports that the J-20 uses an AL-31FM2-derivate, which is in fact nothing more than a 117S without TVC, so how can it be by Your own definition an "outdated engine" if both types are using the same one ????...

Nope. Thats not the case. AL-31FM2 and 117S are from Salut and Saturn respectively. So they are most certainly different internally and externally. They do produce similar max thrusts around 142kN when the afterburners are in full but that it just one part of the story.

Deino · Oct 20, 2016

Hyperwarp said:
Nope. Thats not the case. AL-31FM2 and 117S are from Salut and Saturn respectively. So they are most certainly different internally and externally. They do produce similar max thrusts around 142kN when the afterburners are in full but that it just one part of the story.

Ok. ... one never learns enough ! But to admit I still don't get it ... so please help.

So let me (I hope correctly) summarise:
all so far produced AL-31 - either F ad FN - are from Salut (

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

as such the 117 & 117 are from Saturn?

But what is then Salut = former Salyut ??

Saturn = NPO Saturn (former Luylka Design Bureau) responsible for development and UMPO (UEC) responsible for serial production.

But following other reports 117S and 117 are from UMPO aka Saturn, however the 117S was developed in cooperation between both ?!! As such, both enterprises are in knowledge of the same technical facts ... and so most likely both engines are not that different. Or am I wrong?

By the way, are both enterprises - Salut and Saturn - so much different and even competing (similar to Irkut and KnAAPO?) ordo both work together in developing and improving their engines?

Could You please help me in doing my homework ??

Deino

b787 · Oct 20, 2016

Deino said:
@b787 ... please instead of throwing again Your bias around; do Your homework first. However the supercruise is indeed a point !

1. You are mixing the 117 engine as used in the T50 - which indeed surprises me - with the 117S in the Su-35. As such ...

2. If the Su-35 per Your definition uses a supercruise-capale engine and we are now assuming by these latest reports that the J-20 uses an AL-31FM2-derivate, which is in fact nothing more than a 117S without TVC, so how can it be by Your own definition an "outdated engine" if both types are using the same one ????

And by that time also the Chinese WS-15 will be ready !

As such it makes IMO perfect sense to acquire the Su-35 most of all due to their TVC in order to prepare the PLAAF and its pilots to use this tool.

Deino

You are a bit confused, UEC or United engine corporation does not have any entry for PAKFA`s engine, only for Su-35`s 117 engines, see link

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

there is no official engine quoting a different engine, further more you are confused Al-31 has two variants the one you mention is a 13.5 tonnes built for J-10, the AL-31F-M2 is another engine not used for Su-34 or Su-27 variants it has never been sold to China, it has TVC nozzles and has aMax thrust of 14.5 tonnes.

Russia by official statements has declared 117 is not a true 5th generation engine, that is the reason they are building T-30

AL-31FN series-3 engine and AL-31F-M2 are not the same engine

If you doubt it here is the source

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

the difference is one 1000 kg of thrust and TVC nozzles

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If China can achieve the WS-15 good for them, but what i have read Russia will try to be ahead of the competition by having Type 30 earlier, only time will tell
The page of PAKFA does not mention if T-50 has another engine

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

b787 · Oct 20, 2016

Deino said:
Ok. ... one never learns enough ! But to admit I still don't get it ... so please help.

So let me (I hope correctly) summarise:
all so far produced AL-31 - either F ad FN - are from Salut (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
as such the 117 & 117 are from Saturn?

But what is then Salut = former Salyut ??

Saturn = NPO Saturn (former Luylka Design Bureau) responsible for development and UMPO (UEC) responsible for serial production.

But following other reports 117S and 117 are from UMPO aka Saturn, however the 117S was developed in cooperation between both ?!! As such, both enterprises are in knowledge of the same technical facts ... and so most likely both engines are not that different. Or am I wrong?

By the way, are both enterprises - Salut and Saturn - so much different and even competing (similar to Irkut and KnAAPO?) ordo both work together in developing and improving their engines?

Could You please help me in doing my homework ??

Deino

Now about the J-20, it is flying with an under powered engines, Su-35 weighs close 16 tonnes empty, J-20 has at least a empty weight of 19 tonnes, roughly the weight PAKFA and F-22 weight, these 5th generation fighters need at least engines in the range of 15-16 tonnes, Al-31FN-M3 is 13.5, PAKFA even with 117 is said to gulp fuel in higher amount than F119, so the supercruise is not as efficient as desired.

Russia has never released the Supercruise speed of Su-35 or PAKFA, but the Americans have, F119 has higher yield than 117 and Al-31FN-M3, you can not expect they can achieve the Mach F-22 can.

It is likely Su-35 achieves Mach 1.3 in supercruise, but the jet is lighter than both PAKFA and J-20, so what speeds PAKFA has achieve and under what condition who knows. J-10 might achieve supercruise with M3 under perhaps a light configuration, but with a max take off weight is unlikely

Deino · Oct 20, 2016

Thanks, but as far as know, there is no M3 !

Deino · Oct 20, 2016

b787 said:
You are a bit confused, UEC or United engine corporation does not have any entry for PAKFA`s engine, only for Su-35`s 117 engines, see link
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
there is no official engine quoting a different engine, further more you are confused Al-31 has two variants the one you mention is a 13.5 tonnes built for J-10, the AL-31F-M2 is another engine not used for Su-34 or Su-27 variants it has never been sold to China, it has TVC nozzles and has aMax thrust of 14.5 tonnes.

Russia by official statements has declared 117 is not a true 5th generation engine, that is the reason they are building T-30

AL-31FN series-3 engine and AL-31F-M2 are not the same engine

If you doubt it here is the source

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

the difference is one 1000 kg of thrust and TVC nozzles

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If China can achieve the WS-15 good for them, but what i have read Russia will try to be ahead of the competition by having Type 30 earlier, only time will tell
The page of PAKFA does not mention if T-50 has another engine

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Indeed I am confused and as such THANKS lot !

BUT ... I never said that the AL-31FN series-3 engine and AL-31F-M2 are the same engine !
I only said that following the lasts reports, the J-20 might us a special customised version based on the AL-31FM2, which would make sense since it too is from Salut (as shown in Your link).

My fault was therefore surely not only to mix Salut and Saturn but to "not-know" that the 117 and 117S are not from Salut but Saturn.

Anyway are there any info on how much both - Salut and Saturn - cooperate ? ... or are they by now so much different that also their developments are independent?

Deino

b787 · Oct 20, 2016

Deino said:
Indeed I am confused and as such THANKS lot !

BUT ... I never said that the AL-31FN series-3 engine and AL-31F-M2 are the same engine !
I only said that following the lasts reports, the J-20 might us a special customised version based on the AL-31FM2, which would make sense since it too is from Salut (as shown in Your link).

My fault was therefore surely not only to mix Salut and Saturn but to "not-know" that the 117 and 117S are not from Salut but Saturn.

Anyway are there any info on how much both - Salut and Saturn - cooperate ? ... or are they by now so much different that also their developments are independent?

Deino

To be honest i do not think China is flying the M2 version on J-20 otherwise why buying the Su-35? plus i do not think even J-10 uses the WS-10 in operational aircraft specially whe they bought the improved Al-31FN-M3, it does not make sense if WS-10 is better why buy Al-31FN-M3s, for operational J-10s, even if J-20 uses them, i would not say what engine J-20 flies with, but if J-10 flies in operational aircraft with Al-31FN-M3 and a handful of aircraft use WS-10 i doubt China has achieve parity with Russia, further more i never have seen J-20 doing post stall, regardless they say has excellent handling i have never seen post stall, but in 2016 you do not really need post stall unless you are on a 1 to 1 fight and with old aam or gun, most aircraft can now have HMS and advanced missiles, TVC only is useful for J-20 for stealth by reducing aerodynamic control reducing canard and flap deflection and potentially getting rid of the ventral fins.

So in my personal opinion J-20 is flying with an engine still a generation behind PAKFA and F-22`s current engines, in my opinion 117 will be useful not for agility, but for stealth and aerodynamic drag improvement ad of course supercruise which is the real advantage

But it is also a designer`s Choice, you must know Eurofighter can use TVC nozzles but they thought is an overkill in money and having IRIS-T there is not such need for the Luftwaffe to use it

Deino · Oct 20, 2016

Thanks again, but there is - at least as far as I know - NO AL-31FN-M3, only an AL-31FN Series 3 ! They are different.

b787 · Oct 20, 2016

Deino said:
Thanks again, but there is - at least as far as I know - NO AL-31FN-M3, only an AL-31FN Series 3 ! They are different.

you are correct, the Al-31FN is called series three, but there is the Al-31F-M3

Stubborn and uncompromising competitor "Saturn" in recent years in favor MMPP "Salut". In contrast to the anemic Ufa Management CEO "Salute" Yuri Eliseev used the proceeds from the sale to China of engines AL-31F and AL-31FN, for large-scale technical re-equipment of the enterprise, and create your own size. Apparently, today, "Salute" as "Saturn", has the most modern and high-tech machine park in Russia. Strong position on the technical equipment - the main advantage and the main hope Mr Yeliseyev in his competition with "Saturn". Paul fierce struggle between the two companies began to market the modernization of AL-31F engines.
In contrast to the developed "Saturn", "article 117" "Salute" by own CB creates a modification of the AL-31F-M1 / 2/3. Moreover, the AL-31F-M1 with increased thrust per tonne in December 2006, has been certified by the Russian Air Force and, included in the state defense order for 2007 to Yuri Eliseev. The advantage line "Salute" is its flexibility and evolutionary approach to capacity building. If the most advanced version of the AL-31F-M3 has only entered the bench tests, the AL-31F-M1 is ready for supply to the Russian Air Force and offered for export to China. If Mr. Eliseev will be able to obtain permission to export to China of the motor and especially the transfer of the license, the future of "Salute" will be provided not less UMPO.
In addition to the struggle for market modernization of AL-31F engines "Salute" to compete with the "Saturn" and strategically important issue of the development of the fifth generation fighter engine for the PAK FA Sukhoi development. Work on the power plant of this machine is divided into two stages. During the first deep modernization of the existing AL-31F engine with a thrust of 14.5-15 tonnes to be carried out. The winner at this stage is well-known: "Saturn" and "article 117". It is this motor should lift into the air prototypes of PAK FA in 2009. However, in May of this year, the new Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin said suddenly to follow the conditions of the tender for the selection of proposals for the creation of the engine of the second stage - the actual fifth-generation engine with a thrust of about 16-18 tons. "Salute" immediately involved in the fight, which is likely, yet has not so much a commercial as a political value. We can assume that the issue price is inferior to the sum of annual sales, "Salute" and the payment of certain allocated for 2010-2015. But if Moscow enterprise to win the competition, the weight of the industry will change radically.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Deino · Oct 20, 2016

But by Your own source (even from 2007), it has only entered the bench tests ... that's far from ready.

AL-31F / FN in China and background

Hyperwarp

Captain

Deino

Lieutenant General

b787

Captain

b787

Captain

Deino

Lieutenant General

Deino

Lieutenant General

b787

Captain

Deino

Lieutenant General

b787

Captain

Deino

Lieutenant General