Aircraft Evolutionary cul-de-sac’s

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Back in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s the Chinese aviation industry begin a couple of interesting designs which would have changed the PLAAF if they could have been produced. The first is the Chengdu J-9, which was a canard ahead of delta wing design similar to the Viggen. Due to engine performance problems this wonderful design would not become a reality.

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The second was the Q-6. This was a reversed engineered version of the MiG-23. However due to limitations (at the time) of the Chinese industrial capacity the engine was not reliable and the MTBO of the engine was rumored to be only around 100 hours. Additionally the FBW system utilized hydraulic actuators at the control surfaces which resulted in a heavier than the simple mechanical-hydraulic controlled variable-sweep wing of MiG-23, thereby reducing the weapon payload, fuel capacity and combat radius. There was also an attempt to reverse engineer the avionics from the F-111 (a gift from the Vietnamese). However, this proved to be too ambitious for the industrial, scientific and technological capability at the time. All of these situations resulted in prolonged development, and contributed to the final cancellation of Q-6.

Most importantly was the amazing technological breakthroughs for the Chinese aviation industry that occurred because of these canceled programs.

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I would like to dedicate this thread to the aviation “Evolutionary cul-de-sac’s”. Aircraft that could have been (J-9), Aircraft that should have been (F-20 tigershark) and aircraft that never should have been.

Please post your photos, comments and videos. I look forward to hearing from the vast pool of knowledge that we have here at Sino Defense.

Thank s Again
 
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delft

Brigadier
In the 1950's there was a lot of development of turbo props. That was cut short in the US so abruptly that that NACA reports that were completed were not published and only appeared around 1980. In most other countries the situation wasn't any better.
Several combat aircraft of that period had contra-rotating or coaxial propellers. I'm thinking of the Douglas A2D-1 Skyshark, the Fairey Gannet and the Westland Wyvern. The Russians used much larger engines in the Tu- 95, -114 and -142 as well as in the '60's the An-22.
It is odd that the front and rear propellers had the same diameter and number of blades. I became aware of the absurdity of this when I saw an article in the Proceedings of the 9th(?) US Naval Architecture Conference(?) in the late '60's about the design of a fast container vessel with coaxial propellers, the front propeller with 4 blades and a larger diameter than the rear propeller which had five blades. That way both propellers could absorb the same power and propulsive efficiency is some 10% better than in a conventional ship with twin propellers. If both propellers had been given the same diameter then the tips of the rear propeller would have been destroyed by cavitation due to the vortices streaming from the tips of the blades of the front propeller. Just so with air propellers, that are not bothered by cavitation but that would produce more noise and have a lower efficiency with that configuration. The better configuration appeared with the propellers of the An-70.
I'm looking forward to seeing an aircraft with four engines driving two pair of coaxial propellers and STOL performance.
Btw already in WWI bomber aircraft appeared with tandem engines where the front engine drove a two-bladed propeller and the rear engine a four-bladed one of smaller diameter.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Here is another aircraft that would have made an interesting addition to the 3rd world export market should it have come into being The Yugoslavian Novi Avion. The project was started in the mid-1980s in order to make Yugoslavia fully self-sufficient in the manufacture of military equipment, When Yugoslavia disintegrated in 1991, the project was cancelled, since the break-up of the country made the financial resources necessary to start production of the plane unavailable.
The design was approximately one year from completion at the time of cancellation, and design of some production facilities and prototypes of some parts such as the cockpit had already been built.
Yugoslavia expected to build approximately 150 of these planes to replace its MiG-21s and J-21 Jastrebs, and a sale of several hundred Novi Avions on the world market was also anticipated.
yugosonic.jpg
 

Scratch

Captain
That's a really nice topic, Miragedriver, I like it.

There's 3 aircraft on top of my head that I would like to present here. I really like designes pushing the limits of aviation, if only just for the technical aspect. And most of times those planes are also just cool. :)
Here, it is the desire for speed and altitude.

First, then, is the XB-70 Valkyrie. Unfortunately, it became obsolete even before production started, due to the appearance of high altitude SAMs and ICBMs, wich could do the job better. Stealth tech wasn't far enough at the time to hide the plane long enough. On the contrary, I think the big cornered intakes were rather massive radar reflectors.
But the idea of a supersonic wave-rider is absolutely inspiring.

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The second plane is the XF-108 Rapier. A fast, high altitude interceptor to fend of sovjiet strategic bomers. It shared some development items with the Valkyrie project, but was cancled itself when the sovjiets adopted ICBSs of their own.
The sovjiet counter to the american strat bomer project XB-70, actually survived to become the MiG-25 interceptor.

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And, finally, the YF-12 interceptor; itself an offspring of the A-12 / SR-71 reconnaissance aircraft. XF-108 developments were taken over to this project, as well. But in the end, funding was a problem during the Vietnam War, and the US defense strategy changed, so this capability became a lower priority.

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So in the end, that just leaves the A-12 / SR-71 combo to be the only very high altitude / high supersonic, deployed aviation assets in military service. In the western hemisphere at least. The MiG-25 / -31 were close to M3, or could even go beyoned it, but at significant risk of severe engine damage.
 
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delft

Brigadier
Here is another aircraft that would have made an interesting addition to the 3rd world export market should it have come into being The Yugoslavian Novi Avion. The project was started in the mid-1980s in order to make Yugoslavia fully self-sufficient in the manufacture of military equipment, When Yugoslavia disintegrated in 1991, the project was cancelled, since the break-up of the country made the financial resources necessary to start production of the plane unavailable.
The design was approximately one year from completion at the time of cancellation, and design of some production facilities and prototypes of some parts such as the cockpit had already been built.
Yugoslavia expected to build approximately 150 of these planes to replace its MiG-21s and J-21 Jastrebs, and a sale of several hundred Novi Avions on the world market was also anticipated.
yugosonic.jpg

That might have been one of the reasons for external parties to help destroy Yugoslavia.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
That's a really nice topic, Miragedriver, I like it.

Thank you



The PZL-230 Skorpion was a design for a Polish Air Force attack aircraft. The project was started in the late 1980s by the PZL (Polish State Aviation Works) and cancelled in 1994 due to a lack of funds. Skorpion would have had twin jet engines, a fuselage after body blending into the wing and small canards behind the cockpit.
The initial design by, the Polish Ministry of Defense demanded a top speed of 1,000 km/h and an ability to carry 4,000 kg of equipment. The design also incorporated some stealth qualities. However, due to budget cuts it was cancelled in 1994.
It would have been interesting to see how this aircraft design would have competed on the world market. Especially as a replacement for the A-4 Skyhawk, the Jaguar, or the MiG-27
pzl230.jpg
 

Scratch

Captain
Another interesting topic in that category is the modification / upgrading of existing aircraft. If a design is well thought out from the beginning, there's a lot of potential to grow with technology.

One example here is the A-6F Intruder II. It was proposed in the mid 80s and would have replaced the legacy J-52 Turbojets with F404 turbofans of the Hornet; without the afterburners. That alone would have resulted in greater fuel economy increasing the already great range of the plane.
Avionics would also have been upgraded to include a new SAR capable of employing the AIM-120 missile.
The navy, however, wanted the all new A-12 Avanger II aircraft instead, wich of course got cancled later on. That left the navy with the Hornets / SuperHornets for the strike role. Wich meant a much reduced reach of the carrier strike force.
Had the plane been produced, I'm sure an upgrade program similat, albeit less extensive, to the Super Hornet program could have been established, reducing the A-6Fs radar signature, further upgrading avionics and so on.
That would have given the navy a good, long range / long on station time, survivable & very affordable strike platform throughout the '90s and early 2000s.

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japhetmadison

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Thank you



The PZL-230 Skorpion was a design for a Polish Air Force attack aircraft. The project was started in the late 1980s by the PZL (Polish State Aviation Works) and cancelled in 1994 due to a lack of funds. Skorpion would have had twin jet engines, a fuselage after body blending into the wing and small canards behind the cockpit.
The initial design by, the Polish Ministry of Defense demanded a top speed of 1,000 km/h and an ability to carry 4,000 kg of equipment. The design also incorporated some stealth qualities. However, due to budget cuts it was cancelled in 1994.
It would have been interesting to see how this aircraft design would have competed on the world market. Especially as a replacement for the A-4 Skyhawk, the Jaguar, or the MiG-27


So this is the one replaced the A-4 Skyhawk, A much cooler design from it's predecessor.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
So this is the one replaced the A-4 Skyhawk, A much cooler design from it's predecessor.

No, unfortunatlly his aircraft program was canceled and never when beyond the prototype stage. The only aircraft that fill the A-4’s role would be the Su-25, Hawk and the Yak-130. The L-159 is too light an aircraft
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
The FMA SAIA 90 was an air superiority aircraft designed by the FMA (Fabrica Militar de Aviones, English: Military Aircraft Factory) with the collaboration of Dornier in the mid-1980s. The SAIA 90 which was the last stage of the ACA (Avión Caza Argentino) project, which was started by the Proceso de Reorganización Nacional (National reorganization Process) to develop an Argentine fighter aircraft. The three stages of the project were: By the middle of 1980 the Fabrica Militar de Aviones and Dornier had a flowing relationship as a result of the combined development of the IA 63, and both contemplated a cooperation agreement for the production of future airplanes. This agreement called to both parties to establish a common office in the city of Córdoba, Argentina within the year for the production, marketing and associated support services of their products.
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By the middle of 1980 Fábrica Militar de Aviones, was already facing serious financial difficulties, with a deficit of U$S 50 million annually and it was in the search of partners to face diverse business that they allowed him to survive giving 49% of their property.
It was evident that the factory could not complete the project by itself and it maintained diverse contacts, such as Aermacchi-Aeritalia, McDonnell Douglas and Fairchild, with the intention of attracting a partner with whom to share the project.
Although the intention of the air force was to add McDonnell Douglas, which maintained negotiations for a possible license of production of the A-4M Skyhawk II (now, the A-4AR Fightinghawk) and another one of ejection seats for the trainer IA 63 Pampa, but the American company resisted assuming the risk, because its offer of fighters was covered.
Another possibility was explored then with Aeritalia-Aermacchi, but the financial problems that it crossed the country they made finally abandon the project
 
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