Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Great news. The Government are backing themselves into a corner here so they will not be able to cancel the carriers without a huge political backlash (not to mention losing a lot of 'safe' Labour seats north of the border) so I think a collective sigh of relief is in order.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Point 1: The F-35B does not use the Forgers engine layout at all, it only has one engine not three. the forward lift fan is shaft driven from the single aft facing engine, which employs a single swivelling nozzle at the rear. In vertical mode it sits on a column of hot air at the rear and a column of cold air forward, produced by a single engine just like a Harrier.

The point remains it is not using swivel intakes.

Point 2. If a heat seeking AAM hits any fighter aircraft its time to find out how true the claims of Matin Baker Ltd really are,- EJECT EJECT EJECT! In fact the position of the Harriers nozzles reduces it's IR signature compared to most fighter precisely because of it's mid position, when viewed from above the nozzles are hidden by the wings and the hot air exhaust from the nozzles is mixed with cold air from the forward nozzles, reducing the overall temperature of the exhaust. Name another fighter that can pull that trick...

Wrong. The heat signature, including the ---exhaust plume that you don't see with your eyes--- is as visible from the top as it is from the bottom. Furthermore being closer to the front, it is easier to see from the frontal aspect as well, making it heaven sent for a heater. Lets not forget that heat conducts through metal, so what is hot below will soon be hot above.

Putting your nozzles right at the body of the aircraft heats up the entire aircraft faster, as opposed to ejecting the exhaust to the rear and well away of the aircraft.

Point 3. The accident rate. Time to put this to bed once again. When the USMC first introduced the AV-8A in the early 70s, the

Does not change the fact that statistically, the Harrier has one of the highest accident rates of any fighter-attack aircraft.

Point 4. Afterburners. A great way of emptying your fuel tanks and making yourself the 'brightest point in the sky', just what your opponent's heat seeking Mach 3 AAMs wished for. Ask any fighter pilot, the best way to avoid such a misslie is by dropping flares and turning hard, the faster missile will not be able to turn as quickly because of it's speed. Try turnig a car at 20 mph and at 70 mph, you'll see the difference. Harriers have the best turning performance of any Fast jet in service today, thanks to their nozzles. When a Harrier 'VIFFs' (Vectors the nozzles in Forward Flight), the aircraft's nose pitches upwards by anything up to 90 degrees allowing the aircraft to turn inside of any other aircrafts radius and any missile's radius for that matter.

If afterburners are so bad, then why include it in the F-22? Or just about every modern fighter around the world?

The "dash" is the best way to get in and out of a situation. It still is the best way to gain energy rapidly. Remember Boyd's EM theories?

Dropping flares? Many late generation missiles are quite flare resistant thanks to multispectral or IIR seekers.

VIFFing does not escape you from modern HOBS missiles, some of whom have TVC nozzles and can turn in excess of 40 to 55G.

VFFING does not improve your turn rate. That's nothing but an internet legend. It short cuts the turn but it does not improve the turn rate. It does not improve the energy into and out of the turn. A tighter turn does not let you escape a modern AAM, which explodes using proximity fuses. The best way to deal with a bad situation is to be out of the situation, not this hollywood thingie where missiles can miss overshooting the underside of an aircraft that suddenly maneuvered.

Slow aircraft = dead aircraft in today's modern energy dominated air combat.

Without VIFFing as a matter of fact, the Harrier does not have a good turn rate. It has a wing area smaller than a MiG-21 for a weight at least a ton greater. That means high wing loading, which means without resorting to VIFFing, you will have a large turn, and a higher stall speed, which means a higher minimum speed to make that turn.

Point 5. As for the RCS of the intakes, yes it is large. But the Harrier is smaller than most jets and is harder to pick up visually (where most air to air combat takes place thanks to rules of engagement in most conflicts) so this is balanced out somewhat. The intake RCS only makes a difference if the engagement is head on or from a forward vector. No difference at all from the side or the rear. From above the Harrier has low RCS and low IR signature, which is why Harriers prefer to operate at low to medium altitudes where the engine has best performance (ie below the altitude of marauding enemy fighters).

You really have a very outdated notion about some modern air combat concepts. Pick up visually? Even in visual distance, radar can pick you up and mark you as a target in the HUD or in the latest generation systems, in the HMS.

Head on is the most common, and thus the most discussed form of BVR combat. That's why reducing the frontal RCS is the most important aspect of all.

I have already debunked your claims about the Harrier having low thermal signature. Now try dealing with an aircraft that has an IRST mounted, and its going to spot it pretty quick, and before you know it, queing with a WOBS heater that will not only attack from any aspect, but from a field of view as wide as 120 degrees.

Remeber also that in 1982 a force of 28 'subsonic, high RCS, High IR signature toy fighter with no BVR weapons' defeated an land based air force with supersonic low RCS fighters that outnumbered them by at least 5 to 1. As Cmdr 'Sharkey' Ward (CO of 801 NAS aboard Invincible at the time) said: "We are not outnumbered, we are in a target-rich environment!". The most important characteristic of any fighter is not it's speed, but the quality of the pilots.

Those supersonic fighters were for one thing, pretty much fuel BINGOed by the time they reach the combat space, and another thing they lack all aspect IR AAMs. That means using IR missiles of the previous generation, you need to get a tail shot to make it work, making them vulnerable to VIFFing and all that. In contrast, the Harriers were equipped with all aspect missiles (AIM-9Ls) so they can attack the Mirages at any aspect. The Argentinian pilots were actually well trained, you know, but no training can compensate the tactical disadvantage of having little fuel and only rear aspect missiles.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
The point remains it is not using swivel intakes.

The F-35B does have a thrust vectoring nozzle that provides lift; it's the rear tail nozzle. The F-35B when operating in vertical lift mode stands on the thrust from both the lift fan and the rear nozzle.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! Fire on board the USS George Washington CVN-73. 2 dozen American sailors injuried.

George Washington Continues on to San Diego Following Fire
Story Number: NNS080523-15
Release Date: 5/23/2008 12:56:00 PM

From Naval Air Forces Public Affairs

ABOARD USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (NNS) -- At approximately 7:50 a.m. local time on May 22, a fire was detected in the vicinity of the aft air conditioning and refrigeration space and auxiliary boiler room aboard the aircraft carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73).

The fire spread to several spaces via a cableway and caused extreme heat in some of the ship spaces, but it was contained and extinguished by the crew without any serious injuries to personnel. It took several hours to completely contain and extinguish the fire.

The ship had been conducting a routine replenishment at sea in the Pacific Ocean with USS Crommelin (FFG 37)when smoke was observed and an emergency breakaway was initiated.

There were no serious injuries. Twenty-three Sailors were treated for heat stress and one Sailor was treated for first degree burns. The ship's crew was at general quarters for approximately 12 hours.

"There's only one word for the effort this team made to combat the fire and that is heroic," said USS George Washington Commanding Officer Capt. Dave Dykhoff. "The effectiveness of the damage control effort also clearly demonstrated the quality of our training, procedures and systems."

The ship's propulsion plant was not damaged and there were no reactor safety issues as a result of the fire. The ship has full propulsion capability.

George Washington is continuing as scheduled to San Diego prior to relieving the USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) as the forward deployed aircraft carrier in the Western Pacific this summer.

Crew members of all U.S. Navy ships are highly trained in firefighting in order to be prepared to respond to this kind of incident. Fires at sea are taken very seriously.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! Fire on board the USS George Washington CVN-73. 2 dozen American sailors injuried.

George Washington Continues on to San Diego Following Fire
Story Number: NNS080523-15
Release Date: 5/23/2008 12:56:00 PM

From Naval Air Forces Public Affairs

ABOARD USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (NNS) -- At approximately 7:50 a.m. local time on May 22, a fire was detected in the vicinity of the aft air conditioning and refrigeration space and auxiliary boiler room aboard the aircraft carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73).

The fire spread to several spaces via a cableway and caused extreme heat in some of the ship spaces, but it was contained and extinguished by the crew without any serious injuries to personnel. It took several hours to completely contain and extinguish the fire.

The ship had been conducting a routine replenishment at sea in the Pacific Ocean with USS Crommelin (FFG 37)when smoke was observed and an emergency breakaway was initiated.

There were no serious injuries. Twenty-three Sailors were treated for heat stress and one Sailor was treated for first degree burns. The ship's crew was at general quarters for approximately 12 hours.

"There's only one word for the effort this team made to combat the fire and that is heroic," said USS George Washington Commanding Officer Capt. Dave Dykhoff. "The effectiveness of the damage control effort also clearly demonstrated the quality of our training, procedures and systems."

The ship's propulsion plant was not damaged and there were no reactor safety issues as a result of the fire. The ship has full propulsion capability.

George Washington is continuing as scheduled to San Diego prior to relieving the USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) as the forward deployed aircraft carrier in the Western Pacific this summer.

Crew members of all U.S. Navy ships are highly trained in firefighting in order to be prepared to respond to this kind of incident. Fires at sea are taken very seriously.

Fire is always a serious concern onboard any ship. Therefore, crews that are proficient in firefighting and damage control are essential to any ship that goes into harm's way.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Some great PIX from the USN of the severe fire onboard the USS George Washington CVN-73.

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PACIFIC (May 22, 2008) Fire Team Leader, Machinery Repairman 2nd Class William Neault, guides his team into Hangar Bay 3. The comprehensive firefighting effort extinguished all fires while limiting shipboard damage and preventing any serious injuries for the crew. The cause of the fire and the extent of the damage are currently under investigation as the ship continues on course for San Diego. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Christopher Delano (Released)

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PACIFIC (May 22, 2008) Crew members aboard USS George Washington (CVN 73) conduct comprehensive firefighting efforts to extinguish a fire that spread to several spaces via cableways, creating extreme heat and smoke. The crew was able to contain the fire while limiting shipboard damage and preventing any serious injuries to the crew. The cause of the fire and the extent of the damage are currently under investigation as the ship continues on course for San Diego. U.S. Navy photo (Released)

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PACIFIC (May 22, 2008) Commander, Carrier Strike Group Eight, Rear Adm. Philip Hart Cullom speaks with crew members whom are recovering after having been trapped in a fuel pump room during a shipboard fire, aboard USS George Washington (CVN 73). The comprehensive firefighting effort extinguished all fires while limiting shipboard damage and preventing any serious injuries for the crew. The cause of the fire and the extent of the damage are currently under investigation as the ship continues on course for San Diego. U.S. Navy photo (Released)

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PACIFIC (May 22, 2008) Crew members rest aboard USS George Washington (CVN 73) after conducting comprehensive firefighting efforts to extinguish a fire that spread to several spaces via cableways, creating extreme heat and smoke. these firefighters will return to the fire fighting efforts
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Just goes to reinforce points we've made earlier in this thread about the quality of the crew training and their ability to react in emergencies being as important if not more so than 'paper' characteristics like speed, size of ship, air wing, armament etc.

Well done the crew of the George Washington!
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Just goes to reinforce points we've made earlier in this thread about the quality of the crew training and their ability to react in emergencies being as important if not more so than 'paper' characteristics like speed, size of ship, air wing, armament etc.

Well done the crew of the George Washington!

I'll second that!:)

Too true. Without even going into WWII stories like the Lexington, and the Franklin, etc., reading what happened on board Forrestal and Enterprise during Vietnam is gripping enough. There can't be too many worse places to be than on a burning carrier, not least because a small fire can turn into a large one so quick, and there's just little or no place to go if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Damage/Fire Control can make all the difference. And only top-notch leadership, discipline, and training can make that happen; tech can't stand by itself.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Some fine photos of the RN HMS Illustrious in Instanbul Turkey.

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Quote:
HMS Illustrious in Istanbul during the visit of Queen Elisabeth 2

Just goes to reinforce points we've made earlier in this thread about the quality of the crew training and their ability to react in emergencies being as important if not more so than 'paper' characteristics like speed, size of ship, air wing, armament etc.

Well done the crew of the George Washington!

100% agreed Obi Wan.

When I first joined this forum three years ago the thinking seemd to be .."Well if we have a carrier we will be on par with other countries with a CV"..Not true. It takes the USN constant training to be prepared for situations like the on on the "GW".
 
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