Air Defense Umbrella Argument

Jon K

New Member
What a SAM network helps make redundant is an interceptor point defense system, e.g. one that uses short range fast interceptors like MiG-21s and J-7s. However do note that even if airbases are attacked, they can be repaired, and bunkers that are underground or heavily reinforced require that you need either a huge free falling precision guided bunker buster or a PGM right into the entrance door, though the latter can be repaired eventually and there may be other outlets as well.

Sure, and there's also the possibility of dispersal fields to make the attackers targeting problems even more difficult. However, in today's terms, and I believe even more in future terms, what is fixed can be killed by modern cruise missiles, tactical ballistic missiles and finally by comparatively cheap GPS guided PGM's. Air bases need anti air defence even if air defence system in general was based in fighters.

For a country the size of France or modern Germany, you probably dont' have the rationale for a strategic interceptor. But China, Canada, Russia, even Australia can benefit from a strategic interception force.

Yes, especially as long range state-of-art multirole fighters supported by AWACS and tankers are still useful for offensive means, and also as I said, even if the defence was mostly based in SAM's, having interceptors will force the attacker to tie in forces for escort, airfield denial etc. missions.
 

Jon K

New Member
How much does it cost to deliver that AMRAAM? In fact, considering that you must keep the launch platform loitering (burning fueling) and other support aircraft (AWACS, ECM, tankers, etc.) available to provide support, and you'll realize that the cost is that much greater. In fact, everything available to guide combat aircraft is entirely capable of guiding missiles and their endurance is comparable to air-launched missiles.

Yes, I do agree with yoy. A fighter plane up in the air is a very good mobile air defence platform. However, it takes time to scramble up reinforcements for CAP, thus the attacker who can choose time and place where he attacks may hold numerical superiority. In comparison, scrambling SAM's is much less time consuming affair.

There's also special cases for interceptors, I think. In a very large country, say, China, Australia or Russia, even if defence was based mostly in SAM's, there's enough time to mass up airpower to act against enemy targets (whether cruise missiles or bombers) approaching against deep targets.
 

Jon K

New Member
Attacking, or for that matter, harrassing an enemy air "package" before they can even form up is something a SAM system can never do. Furthermore, AWACS have a very very long radar horizon than ground based systems.

AWACS can be used to support SAM's as well via CEC or similar systems. Modern long range SAM's have ample range to harass enemy air packages via en route. In fact, if you take a look at USN's Super Bug, for example, it has combat radius of approx. 700km's without tanker support. Compare that with range of modern long range SAM's. Of course if one flies lower the SAM range will be shorter, but then again that will also decrease strike radius and also may place the striking aircraft at risk from low-level air defence.
 

zhouj

New Member
I don't deploying an all-SAM or all-interceptor force is the best option regardless of whether one is superior technically in all aspects or not and I hope that no one here is naive to seriously advocate that. Both SAM and interceptor defenses have their advantages and disadvantages and as long as they present a reasonably efficient option for air defense, then the best air defense will always be a combination of these systems.

Putting forth all one's eggs in a single basket will allow enemies to nullify your entire network should they find an opportunity or a weakness whereas diversification will always yield a less risky solution with approximately the same benefits. Ultimately, the question that initiated this thread is how an invading air force will against a relatively modern integrated air defense system.

Personally, I think that there's very limited data on conventional ways involving forces with relative parity. Virtually all air defense suppression in the last decade has been done by superior US/NATO forces versus archaic weapon systems. The most recent incident with Syria and the Israeli Air Force is also not very enlightening given that Syria's recently purchased SAMs were point defense and delivered in mid-August. There's little data on whether fairly recent developments in anti-stealth technology are sufficient to compromise B-2 stealth enough to either suppress their standoff capability or prevent them from having free rein.

In all likelihood, given enough sorties and willingness, there is no doubt any air defense system can be compromised. If this was a carrier-based operation versus the Chinese grid, my prediction would be that the cost of such an operation would be prohibitive enough to deter the operation. Here, the key is to note that air defenses serve as a significant deterrent role. They don't have to prevent enemy air superiority, they just have to make it costly enough to give pause to other nations and let their politicians do the work in achieving the superiority. People seem to forget that Sun Tzu advocated the idea that going to war is already a failure. The value of modern SAMs is not their operational capability; it's their psychological value in deterring foreign politicians.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Zhouj,

I agree with you that an airforce base airdefence is much more expensive than the one that is entirely SAM based. It is however much more effective and flexible. You said it best that the best airdefence is an integration of the two.

Personally, I think that there's very limited data on conventional ways involving forces with relative parity. Virtually all air defense suppression in the last decade has been done by superior US/NATO forces versus archaic weapon systems. The most recent incident with Syria and the Israeli Air Force is also not very enlightening given that Syria's recently purchased SAMs were point defense and delivered in mid-August. There's little data on whether fairly recent developments in anti-stealth technology are sufficient to compromise B-2 stealth enough to either suppress their standoff capability or prevent them from having free rein.

The SAM vs Aircraft arms race has been on going since the invention of the SAM. The US introduction effective SEAD tactics, anti-radiation missiles and jamming, have tilted this balance into the aircraft. Stealth and low observable technology have made it even more so.

The reason why the US/NATO air forces has been so successful against "archaic" air defence system is due to its doctrine of the primacy of the aircraft over the SAM. In 1973, Egyptian SAM systems destroyed 1/4th of the IAF. US air loses over Hanoi were also very large. Yet within 9 years, these same SAM systems were efficiently destroyed in the Bekaa valley. Why? The investment in aircraft paid off. Planners and think tanks have developed new tactics and technology to minimized the SAM threat.

The Iraqi airdefence system around Baghdad was the best money can buy. The first and only time Coalition forces sent convetional aircraft in Baghdad in 1991, resulted in the largest single day aircraft losses in the 1st Gulf War. The F-117 operated with impunity.
 

zhouj

New Member
The SAM vs Aircraft arms race has been on going since the invention of the SAM. The US introduction effective SEAD tactics, anti-radiation missiles and jamming, have tilted this balance into the aircraft. Stealth and low observable technology have made it even more so.

In same people, SAM technologies have been developed to counteract against those developments. Anti-stealth radars with longer wavelengths, optical and thermal guidance systems, side lobe emission reduction, anti-radiation SAMs, etc. are also deployed in current weapon systems to counter the new aircraft developments. Every weapon system has the counter; again, the issue is the cost-efficiency of the system and its ability to be integrated in a complete strategy. Very rarely in military warfare does a technology remain completely dominant for long; the more successful a technology is, the more resources that will be devoted to counteracting it.

The reason why the US/NATO air forces has been so successful against "archaic" air defence system is due to its doctrine of the primacy of the aircraft over the SAM. In 1973, Egyptian SAM systems destroyed 1/4th of the IAF. US air loses over Hanoi were also very large. Yet within 9 years, these same SAM systems were efficiently destroyed in the Bekaa valley. Why? The investment in aircraft paid off. Planners and think tanks have developed new tactics and technology to minimized the SAM threat.

The real reason is not operational doctrine so much as there was a greater difference between the attacking forces and the defending forces. In 1973, Egypt had created a virtual wall of SAM with state of the art systems; they effectively saturated the area with enough SAMs to cover their tank divisions from Israeli aircraft. Nine years later, the Israelis had SEAD-capable aircraft and the Syrians had the same older SAMs along with much less Soviet support. Similarly, in Iraq, there was a huge divergence in technology and training of the two sides; it's a very common fallacy to believe that the Iraqi military was the "best money could buy" and, in fact, most experts believe that the quality and quantity of Iraq's forces were severely overestimated. The Iraqi military was poorly trained and conscripted; we all know the advantages of a professional, volunteer military. Over a hundred of Iraq's airplanes also defected and flew into Iran. Morale and discipline was obviously low, training was lacking, and the quality of the crews manning weapons is as important if not more important than the technology being utilized.

You seem to think that no one is trying to develop new SAM tactics and technologies. Arbitrage opportunities don't exist for long in the world; nations will continually respond to new developments by creating counters where it involves SAMs or aircraft. As I noted before, there are very limited situations in the last decade where forces with relative parity have exchanged in serious combat.

The Iraqi airdefence system around Baghdad was the best money can buy. The first and only time Coalition forces sent convetional aircraft in Baghdad in 1991, resulted in the largest single day aircraft losses in the 1st Gulf War. The F-117 operated with impunity.

See above. Losses also tend to be the greatest on the initial wave and the coalition continued to send in "conventional" non-stealth aircraft during the war. Per sortie cost is very high with stealth aircraft and the US will not have the ability to deliver all-stealth sorties on enemy targets until the JSAF is fully adopted.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
In same people, SAM technologies have been developed to counteract against those developments. Anti-stealth radars with longer wavelengths, optical and thermal guidance systems, side lobe emission reduction, anti-radiation SAMs, etc. are also deployed in current weapon systems to counter the new aircraft developments. Every weapon system has the counter; again, the issue is the cost-efficiency of the system and its ability to be integrated in a complete strategy. Very rarely in military warfare does a technology remain completely dominant for long; the more successful a technology is, the more resources that will be devoted to counteracting it.

You are correct here. The next revolution in military affairs regarding air defence will be directed energy weapons. Once fielded it will tilt the balance towards air defence.


The real reason is not operational doctrine so much as there was a greater difference between the attacking forces and the defending forces. In 1973, Egypt had created a virtual wall of SAM with state of the art systems; they effectively saturated the area with enough SAMs to cover their tank divisions from Israeli aircraft. Nine years later, the Israelis had SEAD-capable aircraft and the Syrians had the same older SAMs along with much less Soviet support. Similarly, in Iraq, there was a huge divergence in technology and training of the two sides; it's a very common fallacy to believe that the Iraqi military was the "best money could buy" and, in fact, most experts believe that the quality and quantity of Iraq's forces were severely overestimated. The Iraqi military was poorly trained and conscripted; we all know the advantages of a professional, volunteer military. Over a hundred of Iraq's airplanes also defected and flew into Iran. Morale and discipline was obviously low, training was lacking, and the quality of the crews manning weapons is as important if not more important than the technology being utilized.

You mean bomb runs along the Suez Canal againsts Egyptian pontoon bridges that were lined by SAMs? The IAF pilots were certainly well trained. Yet those same pilots using vastly different tactics had a different outcome 9 years later. Troop quality is a major factor, don't get me wrong, but tactics is one of the major factor in war.

The French have superior tanks and quantitative superiority over the Germans in 1940, yet they were the ones who were conquered.

The 3 divisions of Iraqi Republican guard manage to reorient itself, under fire, and put in a blocking force in order to protect the left flank of the retreating Iraqi Army. They suffered crippling losses yes, but they were a far cry from being poorly trained and conscripts, and stall the US forces long enough to ensure the escape of main army.

You seem to think that no one is trying to develop new SAM tactics and technologies. Arbitrage opportunities don't exist for long in the world; nations will continually respond to new developments by creating counters where it involves SAMs or aircraft. As I noted before, there are very limited situations in the last decade where forces with relative parity have exchanged in serious combat.

Do not put words into my mouth. I said that current arms race between SAM's and Aircraft has tilted to the aircraft. See above post as to where I think the next RMA concerning air defence will be.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
The Iraqi airdefence system around Baghdad was the best money can buy. The first and only time Coalition forces sent convetional aircraft in Baghdad in 1991, resulted in the largest single day aircraft losses in the 1st Gulf War. The F-117 operated with impunity.

The Iraqi air defense is overrated. It is dilapidated, ill maintained, and had many many integration issues. The Iranians, with an airforce disintegrating from the lack of spares, made regular raids on Baghdad that was completely timed to the clock, like Phantoms bombing Baghdad right at the moment of the Ayatollah's birthday. The Kari command system didn't even work at all. Because of lack of proper training and poor maintenance, Croatales were found never fired.

In Bekaa valley, the Syrians were using equipment that wasn't much evolved from what the Egyptians and the Vietnamese use. As a matter of fact, all of them were using downgraded equipment, downgraded because the ECM hardened SA-2s were never exported outside of Russia. The SU only sent monkey versions of the missiles and many failed to find their targets due to US ECM measures, otherwise the plane casualties would even be much worst. The Chinese knew the SA-2s were monkey versions, and went on to modify their own versions, the HQ-2, against ECM measures, which bore some success nailing a number of U-2 flights.

The current appearance of "superiority" for aircraft is only against badly outdated and maintained systems. We have yet to see how current aircraft stands up against the S-300s, AEGIS, Standards, ASTERs, and PACs of the world.
 

zhouj

New Member
You mean bomb runs along the Suez Canal againsts Egyptian pontoon bridges that were lined by SAMs? The IAF pilots were certainly well trained. Yet those same pilots using vastly different tactics had a different outcome 9 years later. Troop quality is a major factor, don't get me wrong, but tactics is one of the major factor in war.

The IAF pilots had vastly different equipment in the Bakaa Valley against units that the Egyptians had fielded in 1973. The IAF adapted (thanks to the US) and the Syrians didn't. (The Middle East was sold third tier monkey models for all their weapon systems.) For all your claimed "knowledge," I'm surprised you didn't know about the poor quality of export weapons.

The French have superior tanks and quantitative superiority over the Germans in 1940, yet they were the ones who were conquered.

French tanks were defeated both by German tactical superiority and in their ability to fully utilize the comparative advantages of armored units. On the other hand, French tanks were technologically inferior in their command and control capabilities; none of them utilized radios.

If you look at the two key points of World War II, you'll note the key aspect that technology played; the failure of Germany to exploit radar technology resulted in the inability to pacify England and the failure of Japan to properly develop and utilize its carriers similarly resulted in its defeat.

American "superiority" in the half century has been continually maintained by technological superiority and the economic war that resulted in trying to maintain an edge. It was not the B-52 or M1 Abrams that won the cold war but the ability of the US to survive the economic aftermath of an arms race. Nations have limited resources and the economic efficiency of weapon systems is absolutely critical.

The 3 divisions of Iraqi Republican guard manage to reorient itself, under fire, and put in a blocking force in order to protect the left flank of the retreating Iraqi Army. They suffered crippling losses yes, but they were a far cry from being poorly trained and conscripts, and stall the US forces long enough to ensure the escape of main army.

You can take the top 3 divisions of most armies and call them elite but that doesn't change the fact that the exception does not prove the rule. As a whole, Iraqi troops were undertrained conscripts and the Republican Guard was the the elite force. In the same way, you have American mechanized infantry and marine expeditionary units; the latter is obviously better trained and more professional but they're not representative of the American army as a whole.

The reality is that against the coalition forces, the vast majority of the Iraqi army was poorly trained, poorly equipped with third rate monkey models, and lacked the motivation to fight a protracted war against qualitatively and quantitatively superior forces.

And what escape are you even referring to? The Republican Guard was decimated first by airstrikes and the ground combat with coalition forces and the Iraqi army was basically annihilated on the Highway of Death.


Do not put words into my mouth. I said that current arms race between SAM's and Aircraft has tilted to the aircraft. See above post as to where I think the next RMA concerning air defence will be.

You continually note the developments of aircraft in absence of considerations about SAM developments and attempt to portray aircraft as having some significant advantage over SAM systems. The reality is that no major tactical strategy or weapon system will sit around with no counter for the reason I listed above; the greater the advantage, the more resources your enemies will spend to counter it and more often than not, it costs less to react than innovate.

Either way, you blatantly refuse to even acknowledge your flawed analysis, plagiarism, and lack of any real knowledge about warfare or any ability to analyze the implications of those realities.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Either way, you blatantly refuse to even acknowledge your flawed analysis, plagiarism, and lack of any real knowledge about warfare or any ability to analyze the implications of those realities.

Now the member that you (zhouj) treat quite harhsly with this comment is not given the bluecolours (indication of vip-membership) by accident, it needs to be earned. So as you are a new member and apparently not entirely familiar with our code of conduct, I suggest that you tone down your arrogant and self-rightneous style when it comes to judging someones persona, right?

Gollevainen
Supermoderator
 
Top