Air Combat Maneuvering Thread

[Air Force Brat]

To start I would like to open a thread in the Clubroom just for fun: There has been a disagreement on SDF for years about ACM and the validity over whether or not an aircraft should be or should not be "super-maneuverable? I would like to give those of us who love these types of discussions a proper venue for their discussion, as well as some realistic expectations of what may or may not be accomplished by all this "Fancy Flying"?? Air Force Brat

 

[Air Force Brat]

AFB, could you please enlighten us ... ...
Assuming without using Jamming and ECM ... ...

1) Is that true that ... ...a super-maneuverable aircraft like Flanker with MAWS can OUT TURN a Supersonic missile, without using Flares and Chaffs ?
And, the physical scientific reason being ... ... ?

2) Is that true that ... ...a Supersonic BVRAAM missile is useless against a super-maneuverable aircraft like Flanker with MAWS ?

Is that true that ... ...consequently a Supersonic BVRAAM missile is useful only against slow moving AWACS, Tankers, or similar non mobile ELINT aircrafts ?

3) If a super-maneuverable aircraft like Flanker with MAWS is performing Pugachev Cobra maneuver, then instead of dropping the nose back down, ...while his Flanker nose is pointing upward, ... can a skillful pilot climb his Flanker almost perpendicularly upward to higher attitude ?

Many thanks for your help.

IMHO,
Well, it is very much related to Flanker performance.

Only Flanker can do Pugachev Cobra maneuver.
( someone please prove me wrong )

Have you ever seen the video of any other aircraft beside Flanker who can perform Pugachev Cobra maneuver ?

Plenty of people think that Flanker Pugachev Cobra maneuver is only good for Acrobatic show, and useless for Combat maneuver. Well, I think Pugachev Cobra maneuver is a very significantly useful for dogfighting combat.

Since, I am no expert, I would like to see if anybody can show me a scientific proof that Pugachev Cobra maneuver is only good for Acrobatic.

As I have posted in the past, there must be a strong reason -- why for 4 years in a row, J-11xx and Su-30MKK have won the Golden Helmet Confrontational combat competition using ( 2 on 2 + SAM battery + ECM battery ).

Why do I say that ?
Because, the last picture that J-10A won the Golden Helmet was in 2011. Since then the PLAAF J-10A pilots have been obsessed with beating the J-11xx pilots in their daily Confrontational combat practices, but it has not happen yet on the annual Golden Helmet event.

Maybe, we have to wait for J-10B or J-10C or J-20 pilots to take the crown from J-11xx pilot away.



2015 Golden Helmet winners
View attachment 23480

IMHO once someone has achieve a missile lock, you are pretty much "dead meat"??? the purpose of Super Maneuverability and Electronic Warfare, is to prevent the bad guy from locking onto you in the first place?? I would like to be wrong? but I'm afraid that modern AAMs are very effective, and can turn extremely tightly, and all they have to be is hand-grenade close?

View attachment 23475
The illustration you posted is already the proof. The plane flies in a straight line despite the nose pointing elsewhere. Flying in a straight line is not going to dodge any bullet or missile.

The Eng is right, supermaneuverability may be able to prevent someone from get a positive lock on you, and that is the whole idea, however with the advent of the HMS, the advantage of the "Cobra" has become a liability. Now if your opponent does NOT have HMS, and if he is flying a MIG-25, which isn't very maneuverable, you might have a chance??

 

[Brumby]

The primary aim in the whole exercise is an attempt to escape a probable lock on and if there is a lock-on an attempt to loose the lock. The nature of the conversation is not just confined to super maneuverability but with the nature of the no escape zone (NEZ), the profile of the AMRAAM (EO,IR, Radar), ECM and sometimes luck. I agree the trend of PK's have improved over time and I believe will continue to do so. The probability of escape is diminishing and hence I believe first look first shoot is the dominant play.

The recent SU-24 incident over Turkey is a testament of how potent the technology has become.

 

[Air Force Brat]

The primary aim in the whole exercise is an attempt to escape a probable lock on and if there is a lock-on an attempt to loose the lock. The nature of the conversation is not just confined to super maneuverability but with the nature of the no escape zone (NEZ), the profile of the AMRAAM (EO,IR, Radar), ECM and sometimes luck. I agree the trend of PK's have improved over time and I believe will continue to do so. The probability of escape is diminishing and hence I believe first look first shoot is the dominant play.

The recent SU-24 incident over Turkey is a testament of how potent the technology has become.

Right, and yet aircrew can be hopeful that even after a hit, it may be possible to punch out, so as you have alluded, it is a very complex set of circumstances, but once the hound is on the fox, your odds of survival go way, way down?

That's why it remains important to exercise your aircraft and its capability to the fullest prior to engagement in WVR? Also should explain even to the naïve on SDF that L/O offers a very significant advantage, as well as very significant protection from AAM. That's why the Chinese, Russians, and US and our partners are working so diligently to develop and acquire an effective 5th gen inventory.

 

[Brumby]

Also should explain even to the naïve on SDF that L/O offers a very significant advantage, as well as very significant protection from AAM. That's why the Chinese, Russians, and US and our partners are working so diligently to develop and acquire an effective 5th gen inventory.

You beat me to this point. LOL.

 

[GreenestGDP]

Firstly, thanks so much to AFB, Brumby, Engineer, Scratch, and all others for offering your feedback on my question on Maximizing Flanker Super-Maneuverability for aerial combat.

AFB, ... ... do you mean ... ... ?
ACM = Advanced Cruise Missile ... ... right ?
HMS = Helmet Mounted Sight ... ... right ?

Please allow me to study those links that Brumby has provided,
and I will reply afterward.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Firstly, thanks so much to AFB, Brumby, Engineer, Scratch, and all others for offering your feedback on my question on Maximizing Flanker Super-Maneuverability for aerial combat.

AFB, ... ... do you mean ... ... ?
ACM = Advanced Cruise Missile ... ... right ?
HMS = Helmet Mounted Sight ... ... right ?

Please allow me to study those links that Brumby has provided,
and I will reply afterward.

HMS is indeed the helmet mounted sight, ACM is air combat maneuvering, basically what Red Flag and Top Gun are all about, learning to acquire and maintain situational awareness, and fighting your aircraft and gaining the advantage over the bad guy.

In the 70s Red Flag and Top-Gun were the USAF and Navy's fighter weapons schools, designed to put Fighter pilots and their RIOs up against an "aggressor" and by flying against aggressors who basically flew Soviet Tactics, and dissimilar combat aircraft, learn to fight and win, taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses, and playing to your strengths and avoiding showing your bad side?

The F-35s sensor fusion is a real game-changer as it will show you where the bad guy is and keep track of him?? during a visual engagement, you will lose sight of the other guy, and he will try to use that to gain a tactical advantage on you. The HMS will eliminate the need to get on the other fellows six o'clock, as you can make high off bore sight shots and your missile will follow the helmets cue for a kill. Fire it and forget it!

 

[GreenestGDP]

AFB, Brumby, Engineer, and Scratch, or any other member please feel free to jump in.
If I may ask, ... ...
If any of you disagree, then please explain -- the scientific reason of your disagreement.

Let's assuming the Cutting Edge Supersonic missile with the latest and greatest electronics is under heavy Jamming and heavy ECM attack, but the Supersonic missile is still functioning, but combined with multiple
OUT TURN maneuvers, the Supersonic missile Radar Lock and IR Lock can be broken or in other words -- the Cutting Edge electronics of the Supersonic missile has been neutralized.

Please look at the 5 diagrams below ... ...


Method #1
DODGING and EVADING Supersonic missiles





Method #2
DODGING and EVADING Supersonic missiles




Method #3
DODGING and EVADING Supersonic missiles





Method #4
DODGING and EVADING Supersonic missiles




Method #5
DODGING and EVADING Supersonic missiles




What do you say about this OUT TURNing missile tactics ??



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[SamuraiBlue]

Funny I always thought super maneuverability(vector thrust) was to gain an upper edge so that you are able to shoot before the other gains position to shoot their missiles.
From my understanding of supersonic missiles they can make much tighter turns then any fighter can but due to speed difference the missile would need to hit the target at first pass or they will lose target and self destruct mode is initiated.
AAM also flies in a spiral course to anticipate any move by the target and the spiral radius is also the tightest curve the missile can make. If a human riding vehicle was to move at those speeds he would black out so I don't think you could doge a missile.
Better way to defeat an incoming missile in my opinion is to disable it's sensor through ECM strong enough to burn the circuits within like an EM beam which TRDI is studying at the moment.

 

[b787]

Funny I always thought super maneuverability(vector thrust) was to gain an upper edge so that you are able to shoot before the other gains position to shoot their missiles.
From my understanding of supersonic missiles they can make much tighter turns then any fighter can but due to speed difference the missile would need to hit the target at first pass or they will lose target and self destruct mode is initiated.
AAM also flies in a spiral course to anticipate any move by the target and the spiral radius is also the tightest curve the missile can make. If a human riding vehicle was to move at those speeds he would black out so I don't think you could doge a missile.
Better way to defeat an incoming missile in my opinion is to disable it's sensor through ECM strong enough to burn the circuits within like an EM beam which TRDI is studying at the moment.

Thrust vectoring is an advantage in stealth, drag and maneuverability, add supercruise and you understand why PAKFA and F-22 have it.

The problem is people only think it helps only in post stall, it does, but the PAKFA has HMS, highly off bored missiles and Thrust vectoring.

PAKFA has the Himalaya ECM, so a fighter like T-50 has been made thinking in all those features