Aerodynamics thread

Engineer

Major
Yeah right all canards are the same:D

That's just simple Laws of physic, which applies the same way of every aircraft. A control surface placed far from the center-of-gravity would give better pitch-authority than a surface that is attached to the wing. That is why long-couple canard can control pitch better than lifting canard and LEVCON.
 
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Engineer

Major
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Indian study says that the deflections of LEVCON, slats, and elevon change the pitching moment

Prove that by quoting! The part of the study that mentioned LEVCON only said that the device can improve lift-to-drag ratio thus sustained turn rate. At no point did the study mentioned the use of LEVCON to provide control authority. The term pitch moment wasn't even used together with LEVCON at all!
 

Engineer

Major
Sukhoi produced Su-33, Su-34 and Su-30MKI . These are all unstable fighters with canards . They also had Su-35 prototypes with canards and finally Su-47 . Therefore, like it or not, considering canards technology they are at the top ;)
They are all unstable and they all have canards, yes, but all these aircraft started out as traditional configuration with pair of canard added later. That fact makes them different design to the tailless canard configuration. As to Su-47, majority of the design were done before the collapse of Soviet Union. While the aircraft is impressive, it is now history and doesn't represent what Sukhoi can realistically produce today.

It is not number of edges, problem with canards is that they do not lay in same plane with the wing . 4.5th gen fighters like Rafale or Typhoon are not even optimized to have canards parallel with the wing (YF-23 was) . Therefore, EM wave could at certain angles (mostly from the side) bounce back from canards down to the wings and back like in waveguide. I will try to find picture to explain better .
The so call problem gets repeated often it remains a myth for now as no one ever provides any concrete data as back up.
 

Engineer

Major
Just out of curiosity Eng, why is that? With today's more sophisticated super computer, more rigorous wind tunnel testings, and more sophisticated CAD software design one would assume that it would make it less costly to design.

The aerodynamics due to canard is more complicated. For example, deflection of a tailplane just causes pitch moment. Placing that tailplane at the front and any deflection would cause everything else to change, such as strength of the vortex thus the amount of lift. That's mean more lines and more complication in the flight control software. Any mistake in calculation or in implementing the software would cause the aircraft to lose control, such as these.
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
But I imagine that solution trades off some pitch authority.

Let me explain you, the studies on F-106 yielded some results, the pitch control was enhanced, lift was enhanced, but and see why but, the F-106 was very sensitive to pitch, the reason is very very simple, the F-106 has a AC positioned at some distance from the CG, thus it is a stable design, the one with Vortex flaps, increased the lifting area ahead of the CG, this means the aircraft became more unstable longitudinally, so it had a pitch up tendency, the F-106 was not designed originally to have vortex flaps, same is with LCA, the air force variant has already a wing area and a AC positioned at a distance from the CG, this means once you add the LEVCON, its static margin changes.

PAKFA was not designed like that, from the beginning the AC has a fixed position, and so its static margin.

Canards are different, and so are LEVCONs, on PAKFA the LEVCON if very far from the main wing`s aerodynamic center (AC)


In fact if you check the distance the LEVCON has to the main wing you find the LEVCON is quiet forward and the gap that a canard and main wing have is filled with a LEX (leading edge extension), thus you can not say canards have longer moment arm, it will depend in the design it self and the needs of the aircraft it self.

If you have checked XB-70 has a canard far from the main wing, but Valkyrie is not a fighter, the reason is canards are not not what people say here, if the lift and weight are not balance you get different results in XB-70 and Eurofighter.

Not all canards are the same, Gripen and Rafale are not designed with the same parameters, neither Viggen or KFIR
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Let me explain you, the studies on F-106 yielded some results, the pitch control was enhanced, lift was enhanced, but and see why but, the F-106 was very sensitive to pitch, the reason is very very simple, the F-106 has a AC positioned at some distance from the CG, thus it is a stable design, the one with Vortex flaps, increased the lifting area ahead of the CG, this means the aircraft became more unstable longitudinally, so it had a pitch up tendency, the F-106 was not designed originally to have vortex flaps, same is with LCA, the air force variant has already a wing area and a AC positioned at a distance from the CG, this means once you add the LEVCON, its static margin changes.

PAKFA was not designed like that, from the beginning the AC has a fixed position, and so its static margin.

Canards are different, and so are LEVCONs, on PAKFA the LEVCON if very far from the main wing`s aerodynamic center (AC)


In fact if you check the distance the LEVCON has to the main wing you find the LEVCON is quiet forward and the gap that a canard and main wing have is filled with a LEX (leading edge extension), thus you can not say canards have longer moment arm, it will depend in the design it self and the needs of the aircraft it self.

If you have checked XB-70 has a canard far from the main wing, but Valkyrie is not a fighter, the reason is canards are not not what people say here, if the lift and weight are not balance you get different results in XB-70 and Eurofighter.

Not all canards are the same, Gripen and Rafale are not designed with the same parameters, neither Viggen or KFIR
Have you heard of the term ceteris paribus? I.think this discussion is a question of all other things held equal, for example if the PAF-FA had canards where it has LEVCONS.

LEVCONS and canards have tradeoffs in terms of performance. As I understand it the LEVCONS doesn't actually shed any vortices. It strengthens or weakens vortices naturally generated by the swept wing or chines/LERXes. When it comes down to it LEVCONS generate pitch moment by regulating the pressure distribution over the plane's lifting surfaces. It can't generate pitching force independent of those other lifting surfaces. Because it's not an independent aerodynamic surface it can't independently sustain its own aerodynamic flow once the wing stalls. Thus the amount of pitch moment it can generate hits a limit when the wing aeeodynamically saturates. Canards don't have this problem because they're an independent surface from the wing. That's not too say Canards are superior to LEVCONS in every way, but as pitching devices they have a greater degree of effectiveness.
 
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F-15

Banned Idiot
Have you heard of the term ceteris paribus? I.think this discussion is a question of all other things held equal, for example if the PAF-FA had canards where it has LEVCONS.

LEVCONS and canards have tradeoffs in terms of performance. As I understand it the LEVCONS doesn't actually shed any vortices. It strengthens or weakens vortices naturally generated by the swept wing or chines/LERXes. .
This is utterly false then your conclusion is false

LEVCONS do generate vortices, both canards and LEVCONS generate lift thus they are pitch moment generators why? because both have camber simply like that and have swept leading edges.
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Both canards and LEVCONs do deflect as such lift can vary

The Difference is LEVCON does not need to have a gap between it and the main wing and to be above the wing level to be more efficient thus it is a hybrid of the Canard and the LEX combining both in one

To put it in few words it is a vortex flap on a LEX in the case of PAKFA; on LCA is a vortex flap on the inner part of the wing with less angle of sweep on the leading edge, so contrary to F-106, only one segment of the leading edge has it
 
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Engineer

Major
This is utterly false then your conclusion is false

LEVCONS do generate vortices, both canards and LEVCONS generate lift thus they are pitch moment generators why? because both have camber simply like that and have swept leading edges.

The Difference is LEVCON does not need to have a gap between it and the main wing and to be above the wing level to be more efficient thus it is a hybrid of the Canard and the LEX combining both in one

To put it in few words it is a vortex flap on a LEX in the case of PAKFA; on LCA is a vortex flap on the inner part of the wing with less angle of sweep on the leading edge, so contrary to F-106, only one segment of the leading edge has it

Just because both canard and LEVCON generate vortices, that does not make them the same as pitch moment generators.

Basically, canard is to tailplane as LEVCON is to trailing edge flap. Like a tailplane, canard is capable of generating its own lift but with the added benefit of enhancing lift at the main wing through vortices. LEVCON is serving essentially as leading edge flap, attached to the wing and functions as part of the wing. The LEVCON has no gap with the wing because there can be no gap with the wing, potentially increasing structural weight.

Also, for your information, there is also a LERX situated between the canard and the wing on the J-20. It is used to enhance the vortex from the canard which would otherwise dissipated. Having a LERX at such a location is not something that can only happen with the LEVCON.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
They are all unstable and they all have canards, yes, but all these aircraft started out as traditional configuration with pair of canard added later. That fact makes them different design to the tailless canard configuration. As to Su-47, majority of the design were done before the collapse of Soviet Union. While the aircraft is impressive, it is now history and doesn't represent what Sukhoi can realistically produce today.

First flight of Su-47 was in 1997, and redesign in 2002. So, I'm quite certain they could produce something like that if there is a interest (i.e. money :D)

Those canards aren't sitting on the same plane :p.

You are right, but NATF supposed to have canards parallel to the wings . Hard to tell now, because it was only a concept .
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
This is utterly false then your conclusion is false

LEVCONS do generate vortices, both canards and LEVCONS generate lift thus they are pitch moment generators why? because both have camber simply like that and have swept leading edges.
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Both canards and LEVCONs do deflect as such lift can vary

The Difference is LEVCON does not need to have a gap between it and the main wing and to be above the wing level to be more efficient thus it is a hybrid of the Canard and the LEX combining both in one

To put it in few words it is a vortex flap on a LEX in the case of PAKFA; on LCA is a vortex flap on the inner part of the wing with less angle of sweep on the leading edge, so contrary to F-106, only one segment of the leading edge has it

Perhaps it's a terminology problem on my part. Let's get into the details of the mechanics of the two devices a bit more. As I understand it vortices are generated as sheets of air sheer from highly swept wings. Increasing sweep angle increases the amount of sheering, and therefore the strength of the vortices. Delta wings all naturally generate vortices. LERXes and Chines generate even more powerful vortices due to the greater sweep angle. Where these vortices happen is also important, but because ultimately the whole point of having vortex generators is to have vortical flow over the wings. This is why the vortices generated by LERXes matter.

What about canards in a canard-delta configuration? Canards generate vortices the same way that swept wings do, but when their vortices are shed they pass over the the main wings, which strengthens the vortices delta wings naturally generate. In close coupled configurations, canards can pitch up and down to control how much vortical flow goes over the wings, which then affects lift, and therefore pitching motion. In this configuration the canards themselves do impart some of their own moment with what lifting force is generated from themselves, but most of the pitching moment is actually generated by the wing. The canards, operating as vortex controllers, only affect the lift coefficient and therefore only indirectly affect pitching moment. Part of this is because being closely coupled reduces the canard's moment arm. The other part of it has to do with the size of the canard, and how size has to do with the placement of the vortex its shedding over the wing. In a longer coupling arrangement, the influence of the canard's vortex is far less because of distance from the wing, but its pitching moment is far greater because of distance from the CG. At the same time you often see long coupled canards being bigger because there's greater emphasis on being pitching devices as opposed to vortex controllers. In this arrangement, the canard's influence on pitch is actually directly from a pitching force it imparts through the generation of lift over its own surface. In other words, as opposed to affecting how much force the wing can push up and down as with the short-coupled canards, in a long coupled arrangement the canard actually pushes up or down.

So what about LEVCONS? Well, first, I should take back what I said about LEVCONS not generating vortices. What I meant to and should have said instead is that the LEVCONS's primary function is not to generate vortices (too my knowledge, and from what I've seen), at least not directly and on its own in the same way a close coupled canard or a LERX would. LEVCONS, as I understand them, are more specialized towards the strengthening or weakening of vortices by changing camber over an area of the wing or body where vortex generation begins. This makes them absolutely superb vortex controllers, far better and simpler than close coupled canards. I'm less certain about how strongly they can help the generation of vortices though, since while they can certainly make vortices more powerful, they themselves, at least as implemented, are not shaped or positioned to be ideal generators. More importantly to this discussion, however, is the effect LEVCONS have on pitching. It should probably be clear by now that LEVCONS have more in common with close coupled canards than long coupled canards in that they indirectly affect pitching moment by affecting the lift coefficient, but it is still the wing's control surfaces that are imparting the pitching force. In that sense LEVCONS are not in fact as good as long coupled canards for pitching. Furthermore, they are technically not as good as close coupled canards for pitching either, because while both primarily affect pitching motion indirectly, only one stalls when the wing stalls. A close coupled canard's airflow is independent of the wings, and the close coupled canard itself still can impart a direct pitching force on its own. This means that at an angle when a wing stalls canards, both long and close coupled, can maintain aerodynamic effectiveness and repoint the nose/reorient the plane. A LEVCONS airflow on the other hand is directly tied to airflow over the wings. The LEVCONS imparts zero actual pitching force independent of the wing, to my understanding. It is only able to affect any aerodynamic force vectors by directly affecting the power of the vortices generated over the wing, and cannot impart its own force. Now, I'm not saying on net balance the LEVCONS is an inferior solution. It may just be that the LEVCONS are effective enough through control of vortices or in tandem with another aerodynamic feature that a solution like a long coupled canard isn't necessary. However, on general principle in an all else held equal condition, the long coupled canard is the superior pitching device.

I'm going to caveat everything I say with the fact that I'm not an aerodynamicist. If anyone wants to correct me they should feel free to.
 
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