About the difference between Chinese & Western Archers

Lezt

Junior Member
Here is some data showing a crossbow with a much higher draw weight is not as efficient as the longbow in transmitting the energy (k.e.) to the bolt or arrow. This can be partly explained by the difference in draw lenght but there should be other factors at play that negatively affect the transfer in energy if too much draw strength is stored at the bow.

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W.F. Paterson (1990) published data from Stephen V. Grancsay about an experiment comparing a longbow and a crossbow that was spanned with a cranequin.

Type of Weapon_____ Draw weight____ Bolt weight____ Speed of bolt_____ Difference
Longbow ___________ 68 lbs. ________ 2.5 oz _______ 133.7 fps _______ Not much!!
Crossbow___________ 740 lbs ________ 1.25 oz. _____ 138.7 fps ________ Not much!!

Both have their merits and have different uses against different foes. Bolts generally are better at penetrating armor (since it is stiffer) while arrows generally retain their power over greater distance.

You can fire cross bows in the prone position, I have yet to seen an archer do it well lying down. But ofcouse archers have awesome ROF.
 

delft

Brigadier
The statistic looks odd. If the momentum of a crossbow bolt is little more then half that of a longbow arrow how can that bolt have more penetrating power through armor?
 

Quickie

Colonel
The statistic looks odd. If the momentum of a crossbow bolt is little more then half that of a longbow arrow how can that bolt have more penetrating power through armor?

The stats is copied as it is from the website. The article never said which of the two has more penetrative power but, in my opinion, an arrow or a bolt of a certain k.e. with a smaller cross sectional area will have the advantage in terms of penetrative power over an arrow/bolt of the same k.e. but with a larger C.S. area.
 

no_name

Colonel
The advantage of crossbow in China's army was to enable normal infantry with no archery training to shoot reasonable accurately and reasonable fast. Also everything is standardised and that helps with training in groups, and you can drill them repeatedly.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The advantage of crossbow in China's army was to enable normal infantry with no archery training to shoot reasonable accurately and reasonable fast. Also everything is standardised and that helps with training in groups, and you can drill them repeatedly.

Crossbows could also be built with stronger draws than conventional composite bows (longer range and greater penetrative power) and is easier to aim and fire (the archer doesn't tire as easily due to the use of the trigger to hold the string in place until he wishes to fire the weapon). It could fire at a reasonable rate if you line your crossbowmen in three rows so one row could fire while the other two reload their weapons. I see it as a sort of "proto-musket" in that regard.
 

CottageLV

Banned Idiot
In general, crossbow archers are much easier to train and can be easily mass produced by a sophisticated ancient military industry, such as that of Chinese Qin empire and Roman empire. The manufacturing could be broken down into the fashion of a production line. Each piece can be manufactured separately with ordinary materials. In fact, remains of Qin dynasty (around 500-200BC) crossbows and arrows show manufacturing precision greater than 0.1mm, in different sites throughout the empire, distancing thousands of kilometers apart. On top of that, it doesn't require exotic materials like those used in curved bows. Ordinary bronze and iron are used for the mechanisms and average high quality wood for the bow.

Far East composite bows require tons of specialized materials (up to more than 100 for Hun style) and are very time consuming just to prepare the raw materials (2 years to dry the hide). It is the same story with the famous English longbow (a year or two to dry the wood). All traditional curved bows require very skilled craftsman and years to produce, whereas Qin counterpart only have to teach each guy how to make one part of the whole crossbow. Hence they are very limited in production.

On top of that, traditional bow archers are very hard to train. Most of these men start at early ages and utilize those skills throughout their lifetime. Unless you are in a nomad group, it is very hard to train a dedicated military archer. Training a professional archer with no previous experience would take years and cost a lot of resources. On the contrary, crossbow archers only have to learn how to pull the string and cock it, then how to aim and pull the trigger. They can be considered adequate for battle with as little training as just short few days.

But traditional curved bows have landslide advantage over crossbows in terms of firing rate, flexibility, and accuracy. Anyone with decent knowledge of archery would understand this. Well trained archers can fire at a very high rate, even close to 15 to 20 a minute in a short burst. The experience of a curved bow archer allow them to hit targets with much better accuracy, even behind obstacles since these arrows tend to travel in a curved trajectory. They can also shoot target from much trickier angles. The greatest advantage of a dedicated archer is that they have much better accuracy at greater distance. The intimacy between the archer's hands and arms with the bow allow them to have much better feel of the weapon.

So to conclude the comparison, they both are very powerful weapons, but in different manners. Traditional curved bows are more for elite units, more expensive and take long time to both train the men and to build the bows. They are like the marksmen and machine gun of their time, both expensive and effective. Crossbows are easy to mass produce and can easily be mastered.

There is really no winner or loser. Both style helped armies defeat their enemies. The Qin empire conquered all of China partly due to its fearsome crossbows. They were mass produced with very high quality and precision, similar to today's production line. The English showed a very different approach. They didn't have that much population and the number of longbow men even more scarce. But despite of small number, they were still very deadly and easily massacred the heavily armored Italian mercenary cavalries.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
In general, crossbow archers are much easier to train and can be easily mass produced by a sophisticated ancient military industry, such as that of Chinese Qin empire and Roman empire. The manufacturing could be broken down into the fashion of a production line. Each piece can be manufactured separately with ordinary materials. In fact, remains of Qin dynasty (around 500-200BC) crossbows and arrows show manufacturing precision greater than 0.1mm, in different sites throughout the empire, distancing thousands of kilometers apart. On top of that, it doesn't require exotic materials like those used in curved bows. Ordinary bronze and iron are used for the mechanisms and average high quality wood for the bow.

Far East composite bows require tons of specialized materials (up to more than 100 for Hun style) and are very time consuming just to prepare the raw materials (2 years to dry the hide). It is the same story with the famous English longbow (a year or two to dry the wood). All traditional curved bows require very skilled craftsman and years to produce, whereas Qin counterpart only have to teach each guy how to make one part of the whole crossbow. Hence they are very limited in production.

On top of that, traditional bow archers are very hard to train. Most of these men start at early ages and utilize those skills throughout their lifetime. Unless you are in a nomad group, it is very hard to train a dedicated military archer. Training a professional archer with no previous experience would take years and cost a lot of resources. On the contrary, crossbow archers only have to learn how to pull the string and cock it, then how to aim and pull the trigger. They can be considered adequate for battle with as little training as just short few days.

But traditional curved bows have landslide advantage over crossbows in terms of firing rate, flexibility, and accuracy. Anyone with decent knowledge of archery would understand this. Well trained archers can fire at a very high rate, even close to 15 to 20 a minute in a short burst. The experience of a curved bow archer allow them to hit targets with much better accuracy, even behind obstacles since these arrows tend to travel in a curved trajectory. They can also shoot target from much trickier angles. The greatest advantage of a dedicated archer is that they have much better accuracy at greater distance. The intimacy between the archer's hands and arms with the bow allow them to have much better feel of the weapon.

So to conclude the comparison, they both are very powerful weapons, but in different manners. Traditional curved bows are more for elite units, more expensive and take long time to both train the men and to build the bows. They are like the marksmen and machine gun of their time, both expensive and effective. Crossbows are easy to mass produce and can easily be mastered.

There is really no winner or loser. Both style helped armies defeat their enemies. The Qin empire conquered all of China partly due to its fearsome crossbows. They were mass produced with very high quality and precision, similar to today's production line. The English showed a very different approach. They didn't have that much population and the number of longbow men even more scarce. But despite of small number, they were still very deadly and easily massacred the heavily armored Italian mercenary cavalries.

Oriental crossbows typically use composite bows for the stave.

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

In general, crossbow archers are much easier to train and can be easily mass produced by a sophisticated ancient military industry, such as that of Chinese Qin empire and Roman empire. The manufacturing could be broken down into the fashion of a production line. Each piece can be manufactured separately with ordinary materials. In fact, remains of Qin dynasty (around 500-200BC) crossbows and arrows show manufacturing precision greater than 0.1mm, in different sites throughout the empire, distancing thousands of kilometers apart. On top of that, it doesn't require exotic materials like those used in curved bows. Ordinary bronze and iron are used for the mechanisms and average high quality wood for the bow.

Far East composite bows require tons of specialized materials (up to more than 100 for Hun style) and are very time consuming just to prepare the raw materials (2 years to dry the hide). It is the same story with the famous English longbow (a year or two to dry the wood). All traditional curved bows require very skilled craftsman and years to produce, whereas Qin counterpart only have to teach each guy how to make one part of the whole crossbow. Hence they are very limited in production.

On top of that, traditional bow archers are very hard to train. Most of these men start at early ages and utilize those skills throughout their lifetime. Unless you are in a nomad group, it is very hard to train a dedicated military archer. Training a professional archer with no previous experience would take years and cost a lot of resources. On the contrary, crossbow archers only have to learn how to pull the string and cock it, then how to aim and pull the trigger. They can be considered adequate for battle with as little training as just short few days.

But traditional curved bows have landslide advantage over crossbows in terms of firing rate, flexibility, and accuracy. Anyone with decent knowledge of archery would understand this. Well trained archers can fire at a very high rate, even close to 15 to 20 a minute in a short burst. The experience of a curved bow archer allow them to hit targets with much better accuracy, even behind obstacles since these arrows tend to travel in a curved trajectory. They can also shoot target from much trickier angles. The greatest advantage of a dedicated archer is that they have much better accuracy at greater distance. The intimacy between the archer's hands and arms with the bow allow them to have much better feel of the weapon.

So to conclude the comparison, they both are very powerful weapons, but in different manners. Traditional curved bows are more for elite units, more expensive and take long time to both train the men and to build the bows. They are like the marksmen and machine gun of their time, both expensive and effective. Crossbows are easy to mass produce and can easily be mastered.

There is really no winner or loser. Both style helped armies defeat their enemies. The Qin empire conquered all of China partly due to its fearsome crossbows. They were mass produced with very high quality and precision, similar to today's production line. The English showed a very different approach. They didn't have that much population and the number of longbow men even more scarce. But despite of small number, they were still very deadly and easily massacred the heavily armored Italian mercenary cavalries.

Oriental crossbows typically use composite bows for the stave.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
The stats is copied as it is from the website. The article never said which of the two has more penetrative power but, in my opinion, an arrow or a bolt of a certain k.e. with a smaller cross sectional area will have the advantage in terms of penetrative power over an arrow/bolt of the same k.e. but with a larger C.S. area.

It is a very complicated thing, but a lot of it is to do with the rigidity of the bolt/arrow. the Arrow have to flex for it to clear the bow when launch and this means that the arrow will flex when it strikes the target dissipating its energy. A cross bow bolt on the other hand is generally designed to be much stiffer to handle the immense forces acting on it upon release; this means that the bolt will not flex as much when it hits the target and more energy transfer will occur into the target.

An exaggerated example is, a rubber bullets from a 5.56 mm rifle which has much more power than a 0.22 rifle will have much less penetrating power than a 0.22 FMJ bullet
 

delft

Brigadier
The mechanics of bows and arrows are pretty complex. But the simple thing about that statistic is that the energy going into the crossbow is much more than went into the longbow while the energy imparted into the bolt was less then that into the arrow. With a bolt four times as heavy the speed would be about the same and the energy into the bolt four times what went into the arrow. So why is that bolt so light? With more energy and hardly more air resistance the bolt will carry a lot further.
 
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