2020: JMSDF & PLAN Surface Combatant strength

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I have no idea what you just said but if your saying the Dokdo class is not a good ship then your wrong, and it certainly is not up for sale either
His post was somewhat difficult to understand...but I believe he meant that South Korea had tried to sell the design to other countries for south Korea to build for them (like the French are doing with the Misteral calas), but no other nation has sought to purchase or build one yet.
 

no_name

Colonel
I have no idea what South Korea is thinking, they have built a amazing flat top the Dokdo Class and have done some major training and excersies with it, its a top notch vessal that is, very good for South Korea and enhances thier capability many fold

however they built one and then just went to sleep, they have the resources, the money and the capability to continue building these ships, as originaly planned, all 4 of them

as far as i know the programme suggests that the second one will be laid down sometime post 2015 but really i was hoping they could have one out sooner!!

with 4 Dokdo Class LHDs South Korea would field a formidable ASW force, a even more powerful amphibous assault force and would be instrumental in a amphibous beech landing to out flank and split the North Korean defences if it came to war, the navy could then attack by launching a force behind enemy lines and forceing the North Koreans to counter attack hence exposing themselves from thier heavily fortified bunkers and tunnels

basically what im trying to say is i dont understand why they built one and then sat twidling thier thumbs, JMSDF has got it spot on!

1. The Dokdo could originally be built because the Koreans want to prove that they can do what Japan does.

2. The are still deciding what roles a ship like Dokdo will play in the SK navy.

3. Are more Dokdos going to be helpful, or a good spending of resources - in the more likely and the most threatening scenario the SK is likely to face at the moment, which is a conflict with NK? Or is it going to be a better option to simply have the US guarantee Naval assistance with their helicopter carriers if such a need arises?
 
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climax

New Member
I have no idea what you just said but if your saying the Dokdo class is not a good ship then your wrong, and it certainly is not up for sale either
I want to say: Dokdo is good ship, but not enough, not like SK top brass expected, for economy and useful.
So like no_nam said, they need time to deciding what roles a ship like Dokdo will play in the SK navy.
His post was somewhat difficult to understand...but I believe he meant that South Korea had tried to sell the design to other countries for south Korea to build for them (like the French are doing with the Misteral calas), but no other nation has sought to purchase or build one yet.
Sorry, my bad. Just like you said, they were building Dokdo class and others stuff not just for request of domestic defense, but they also want to boot their defense industry for export.
So when nobody want buy it, they have to wait when SK navy gain more experience from ship's operation, and decide to do with her class.
1. The Dokdo could originally be built because the Koreans want to prove that they can do what Japan does.

2. The are still deciding what roles a ship like Dokdo will play in the SK navy.

3. Are more Dokdos going to be helpful, or a good spending of resources - in the more likely and the most threatening scenario the SK is likely to face at the moment, which is a conflict with NK? Or is it going to be a better option to simply have the US guarantee Naval assistance with their helicopter carriers if such a need arises?

1. I think not like they want prove something, but they want build it because request for their navy, and for export. They were sent Dokdo LPH around Asia to present it for foreign customer like Malaysia and Australia.

2 & 3. I agree. I think if they want to build more, they must upgrade it, for 18,800 tons LPH, they were focus more about helicopters operation, so their stern dock can not operate with LCU or LCVP...
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The Dokdo class LPH is a great ship and a step forward for the SK Navy toward building a blue-water fleet. However that's also where the problem is -- SK's threat is from NK just over the border, and you don't need a blue-water navy to engage a hostile neighbor next-door.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
During the Korean War the USN landed on the West coast, a amphibious invasion, this forced the North Koreans to come out of thier heavily fortified bunkers and trenches and launch a counter attack which split thier defences

This resulted in USAF using its air power to decimate the Norths army and allows for forces to push up from the South

Amphibious assault, landing forces from the sea has and will always be a corner stone of modern military stratedgy, all major navy's have it as part of thier doctrine and USN has developed the V-22 and F35 for this purpose

South Korea must build up its amphibious forces, 4 LHDs would give South Korea the ability to pull a powerful outflanking manoeuvre where they can come round the rear or side of a North Korean attack, a LHD and LPD for the South is a very beneficial tool which they must add to thier navy

Having the ability to land a battalion or even a entire brigade of marines on a beech will ensure a swift over all victory
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
During the Korean War the USN landed on the West coast, a amphibious invasion, this forced the North Koreans to come out of thier heavily fortified bunkers and trenches and launch a counter attack which split thier defences
This resulted in USAF using its air power to decimate the Norths army and allows for forces to push up from the South
Amphibious assault, landing forces from the sea has and will always be a corner stone of modern military stratedgy, all major navy's have it as part of thier doctrine and USN has developed the V-22 and F35 for this purpose
South Korea must build up its amphibious forces, 4 LHDs would give South Korea the ability to pull a powerful outflanking manoeuvre where they can come round the rear or side of a North Korean attack, a LHD and LPD for the South is a very beneficial tool which they must add to thier navy
Having the ability to land a battalion or even a entire brigade of marines on a beech will ensure a swift over all victory

Considering the close proximity (next door), you can probably fly a Blackhawk helicopter from Seoul to Pyongyang, fully loaded, and make 3 round trips on internal fuel without refueling. I don't disagree that amphibious operations are important, but the fact is that the Dokdo is not a cost-efficient platform for operations against NK.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Considering the close proximity (next door), you can probably fly a Blackhawk helicopter from Seoul to Pyongyang, fully loaded, and make 3 round trips on internal fuel without refueling. I don't disagree that amphibious operations are important, but the fact is that the Dokdo is not a cost-efficient platform for operations against NK.

However, having the ability to land significant heavy forces at will along the North Korean coast will spread out North Korean defences.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
not sure what this means.. maybe nothing but makes for interesting read regardless.

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Japan Looks to Add Offensive Firepower

By Kirk SpitzerJune 03, 201314 Comments



JAPAN MARITIME SELF DEFENSE FORCE
Japanese warships depart Tokyo harbor at the start of an around-the-globe training cruise last month.


TOKYO — North Korea seems to have put its missiles away for now, but Japan’s conservative government wants the option to blast them away the next time they’re pointed in Tokyo’s direction. It’s a satisfying idea, but maybe not a good one.

The ruling Liberal Democratic Party is compiling a new set of defense guidelines that would allow Japan’s armed forces, for the first time, to develop offensive capability, and to strike first if an attack appears imminent.

Under Japan’s strictly pacifist constitution, the Self Defense Force is restricted to weaponry and tactics that are deemed defensive in nature. That means no bombers, no cruise or ballistic missiles, no armed drones — and no shooting until shot at.

That could change under the new National Defense Program Guidelines, which are expected to be finished by year’s end.

“What they are basically saying is, ‘When a potential enemy has started attacking us, then we would start offensive operations to take out their missiles, as well as their missile bases,’” says Narushige Michishita, director of the Security and International Studies Program at the National Graduate Institute for Policy Studies, in Tokyo.

North Korea conducted its third nuclear weapons test in February and later placed medium-range ballistic missiles on launch sites facing Japan. The provocative moves were accompanied with the usual threats and invective toward Tokyo, Seoul and Washington. The missiles were removed last month and the crisis seems to have eased, for now.

The chief of the LDP’s national defense division, Yasuhide Nakayama, told Yuka Hayashi of the Wall Street Journal last week that the latest missile crisis and continuing incursions into Japanese-administered waters by Chinese patrol ships have demonstrated the need to alter the current guidelines.

According to the Ministry of Defense, Japan’s armed forces are required to operate under rules oriented exclusively toward defense.

“The exclusively defense-oriented policy means that Japan will not employ defensive force unless and until an armed attack is mounted on Japan by another country, and even in such a case, only the minimum force necessary to defend itself may be used. Furthermore, only the minimum defense forces necessary for self-defense should be retained and used. This exclusively defense-oriented policy is a passive defense strategy that is consistent with the spirit of the Constitution,” states the ministry’s 2012 Defense White Paper.

Crisis or not, the review is clearly a pet project of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who pressed unsuccessfully for similar measures during his first term in 2006-2007. Abe has focused largely on economic issues since regaining office in December, but has made no secret of his desire to strengthen Japan’s armed forces and to ease constitutional restrictions on the military.

The new guidelines are not expected to recommend the development or acquisition of specific weapons systems. However, previous studies sponsored by the LDP have suggested procuring sea-based Tomahawk cruise missiles, as well as making use of U.S. intelligence gathering and communications satellites and other technologies.

The Abe administration currently plans to buy 42 advanced F-35 fighter planes, at a cost of $20.8 billion. The F-35 could function as attack aircraft, but to develop a wider offensive capability could cost Japan billions more.

Whether all that’s necessary to defend against North Korean missiles or deter other threats is unclear.

Japan already has one of the most advanced missile defenses in the world. The Maritime Self Defense Force has four Aegis destroyers – with two more on order — that are designed to shoot down ballistic missiles at high altitude. The Ground Self Defense Force has deployed shorter-range Patriot anti-ballistic missile batteries at five locations in Tokyo and Okinawa, with two more planned for later. Both systems are designed to operate seamlessly with equally robust U.S. missile defenses based in and around Japan.

North Korea is believed to have 300 or more medium-range missiles that could strike all or parts of Japan. It’s not clear if North Korea has the technology to mount them with nuclear warheads. But even with a conventional warhead, a missile strike in central Tokyo or other major city could cause considerable damage and loss of life.

Although the Aegis and Patriot systems reportedly have worked well in tests, it’s not clear how effective they would be in a real-world situation. It’s possible that even the combined U.S.-Japan defenses could be overwhelmed if North Korea managed to get enough missiles in the air at one time.

The United States, with its vast nuclear umbrella, and network of military bases in and around Japan, is obligated by treaty to come to Japan’s aid in event of attack. Should it be necessary to strike targets in, say, North Korea, the U.S. would seem to have the arsenal of long-range missiles, bombers, drones and God-knows-what-all to get it done.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
not sure what this means.. maybe nothing but makes for interesting read regardless.

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I suspect, that given their angst over North Korean nuclear program and the tensions and growth of China, that they are looking to develop some kind of stealthy cruise missile capability (along the lines of the new Taiwan cruise missile) to be able to hit inland or other targets they feel are an imminent threat.

IE. if they felt a North Korean missile were about to be launched to strike Japan, they would use such a capability to try and take it out before launch. This presumes of course they have strong enough and accurate enough intel to make the call.

Now, some are going to indicate that 1941 Pearl Harbor attack was, in essence, as stated by the Japanese at the time, a pre-emptive strike by the Japanese Empire. But the key to that statement on the other side of that arguement is that it was the Japanese "Empire," which no longer exists, and not the Democratic government they now have. How they square that democratically with their constitution will be interesting to observe.

But all of that is political. From a purely military standpoint, there is no doubt that the Japanese are capable of developing and deploying this capability. It will be interesting to see how they go about it...if indeed they even decide to do so.
 
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