2 Russian Carriers...2 different countries-Liaoning & Vikramaditya

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by Jeff Head, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. Jeff Head
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    Jeff Head General
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    Follow-on Indigenous Indian and Chinese Carriers

    Both the Indians and the Chinese are proceeding with their carrier programs beyond these first carriers which they acquired from Russia.

    The Indian design is a completely indigenous STOBAR design of something over 40,000 tons.

    She is named the INS Vikrant and it will have an angled deck, two deck-edge elevators, an advanced island, and will be able to carry 30 aircraft of various types. The principle air wing will consist of mainly Mig-29K aircraft, however it is anticipated that a squadron of nasalized Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). it is also anticipated that the vessel will use the Ka-31 AEW helicopter.

    The Indian Carrier Vikrant building in Cochin.
    Vikrant-00.jpg

    This vessel was laid down in Cochin in February 2009. However, delays, particularly logistic delays for various parts, impacted the schedule adversely. The vessel was launched in June 2015, almost 6 1/2 years after she was laid down.

    The Indian carrier Vikrant launching in June 2015
    Vikrant-02.jpg

    The Indian carrier Vikrant after launch preparing for outfitting.
    Vikrant-03.jpg

    She is expected to undergo sea trials in 2017 and then be commissioned in 2019.

    The Chinese laid down their first indigenous carrier in February 2015 in Dalian Shipyards..

    Progress on her build has proceeded rapidly. it is clear that she will be a Chinese build of the Liaoning, looking very much like her with improvements to the island structure, to the hangar, and to various areas of the flight deck to optimize operations.

    The 1st indigenous Chinese carrier, called 001A, building in Dalian
    001A-01.jpg

    The Chinese learned a great deal when rebuilding the Varyag themselves into the Liaoning. They are putting that expertise to good use.

    The bow ski-Jump seen waiting to be lifted onto the carrier
    001A-02.jpg

    Though she was laid down six years after the Indian Vikrant, by August 2016, a year and a half later, her construction was complete up to the flight deck. Her ski-jump was seen in a holding structure in late July and the bow ski-jump was then lifted in early August.

    The Chinese carrier with her structure completed to the flight deck, and the island seen along side the vessel, ready to lift:
    001A-03.jpg

    Her island can now be seen along side the vessel and it is anticpated that the island will be lifted into place in September of 2016.

    This new Chinese carrier, which will displace 70,000 tons and be capable of carrying upwards of 30 J-15s, is anticipated to launch in mid-2017. She too is anticipated to undergo sea trials in 2018 and be commissioned in 2019.

    So, though starting their build six years after the Indians, it is now antipated that the Chinese second carrier (their first indigenous carrier) will commission at the same time.
     
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  2. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Lieutenant General
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    Very good ! thank you Boss :)

    As we have see Vikramaditya get few room for aircrafts air operations ! but J-15 is big for a CV which is not a Super Carrier and with a flight deck enough limited.

    Thinking can be really very interesting to know the payload in practice, i get for J-15 max about 3/4 t to consider FT... not a big problem for AAM weight 100/200 kg can carry definitely about 6 but much more for A2G missions ...for bombs definitely max 500 kg possible only 2 and anti-ships missiles about 1 t.
     
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  3. Franklin
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    For a Chinese carrier battle group or for the PLAN as a whole the achilles heels will be anti-sub warfare. I think that in the air defense department the PLAN can handle itself pretty well with the assets they already have and that they are building. But the threat from below is not adequately addressed.
     
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  4. Jeff Head
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    Carrier Weapons Systems (Self defense)

    Of course the principle weapon for any carrier is its air wing, and we have discussed that here.

    After that comes the group of escorting vessels that provide a layered defense against air, sub-surface, and surface attack on the carrier...which we have also discussed.

    But the carriers themselves also carry weapons systems for self defense. Active systems which attempt to destroy threats, and decoys and chaff to attempt to fool or msilead incoming wepons.

    Chinese Carrier Weapons
    In the case of the Chinese carrier, the Liaoning, CV-16, she came out of the yard with a fairly strong set of defensive weapons systems.

    Principally these weapons provide point, last layer defense against air/missile threats and against sub-surface threats from submarines and torpedos.

    Thy include guns, missiles, rockets, chaff, decoys, and electronic counter measures. And well they should. You are talking about a vessel wother billions of dollars, with thousands of personnel and a miniature air force of hig tech, high performance aircraft. They are very much worth defending.

    Here is a diagram showing how these systems are arranged at the four quarters around the ship.

    Liaoning-Weapon-Sensor-Fit-01.jpg

    You can see how the systems are arranged around the entire carrier for defense. The missiles and guns actually provide two additional layers of air defense in addition to those provided by the escorts.

    The principle gun system is an 11 barrelled, 30mm gatlin gun shooting thousands of round per second, contorolled by radar, to allow the stream of dense slugs to intercept the incoming missile.

    Type1130-CIWS-01.jpg

    You are also talkinfg about sophisticated short range missiles in the FL-3000N missile system that can literally intercept incoming missiles. This system seems to be very similar in form and function to the US Navy RAM system which performs the same role.

    FN-3000L-01.jpg

    Finally, you are talking about ASW rocket launchers that can be used to target incoming torpedos and destroy them before they reach the carrier.

    ASW-12-01.jpg
     
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  5. Bltizo
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    Only 4 052Ds are in service (obviously with more than 12 planned), and only 3 Shivalik class FFGs are in service (with additional P17A class FFGs to be built) -- so I assume you mean "they plan to induct" for those two classes :p

    But good summary of the general escorts.
     
  6. Jeff Head
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    Indian Carrier Weapons

    The Indian carrier actually came out of the Russian yards with no weapons systems installed. The Indians decided to make the decision later on what would be installed.

    Intially, this consisted of an Ak-630 CIWS and a Barak-1 short range CIWS missile system. One of each aft on the ship on the port and the starboard side.

    You can see them here on the Vikramaditya:

    Vikram-AK630-01.jpg

    The gun is the typical Russian AK-630 30mm, six barrel Gatling gun for air defense (which can be used for other targeting as well):

    AK630-01.jpg

    The missile is the short range Barak-1 missile from Israel that the Indians are co-developing into the barak-8 MR to LR missile: Though it is the Barak-1 short range that is currently in use.

    BArak-1-03.jpg

    The Vikramaditya is about to go into a refit where the defense systems (and other systems) are going to be upgraded. The Indians have decide to use the new, much more capable AK-630M Gun system for their gun defense on the Vikramaditya:

    Four of these weapons will be installed, one at each quarter:

    AK630M-01.jpg

    For missile defense, the Vikramaditya will also receive the Barak-8 longer range missile system. So in addition to the two eight cell Barak-1 Systems, they will be adding two VLS Systems, one on each side (either fore or aft) which will each either have 16 or 32 cells.

    Barak-1-02.jpg

    This will be a very decent self defense package for the Vikramaditya comprising oin total:

    4 x AK-630M CIWS
    2 x 8 Barak-1 CIWS Missile systems
    2 x 16 (or 32) Barak-8 Medium range missile systems
     
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  7. Jeff Head
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    Yes.

    The Indians are building a follow on to the Shivilik.

    They are going to get three more Talwars (actually the three Russian vessels).

    They are building the follow on to the Kolkata (4 vessels).

    Problem is, the Indians have not hit their stride. They are still limiting their build to 3-4 units each. Not good over the long term. Too much logistical issue. Too much training that has to change from one vessel to the next.

    With the Talwars, Shivilik (and follow on) and Kolkata and follow on) they end up with six separate classes and a total of only 22 vessels.

    The Chinese will have 24 vessels in the Type 52C and TYpe 52D alone. They will end up with another 30+ vessels in the Type 054A/B class as well.

    Much more sustainable...and a LOT more equipment and capability available to bring to the fore.
     
  8. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Lieutenant General
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    Some détails from an excellent Russian blog with many pics, and Flottes de Combat :

    Heavy aircraft carrying cruiser Vikramaditya Project 11430 initialy Project 11430 Baku

    Fuel 8900 t definitely for aircrafts also

    CAW : about 30 aircrafts whose 20 Mig-29K, max 34 with 13 helos.
    oblique track 198 m
    Ski Jump 14.3 °
    hangar 130 x 22.5 x 6.6 m
    Elevators
    1/ max 30 t, 30 tons, 18.9 x 10 m
    2/ max 20 tons, 18.9 x 4.8 m

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-658.html

    Vikramaditya.jpg


    Heavy aircraft carrying cruiser Project 11435 Kuztnesov

    hangar 183 x 29.4 x 7.5 m
    area of the flight deck 14700 m2
    oblique track 220 x 23 m, 7.5°
    Ski Jump 60m, 12°
    Elevators
    2 x max 40 t, 20x 15 m
    Hangar 183 x 29.4 x 7.5 m

    Normaly 30/38 aircrafts max 52
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-5.html

    Liaoning.PNG
     
    #18 FORBIN, Aug 12, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
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