1st Raptor Kill at Red Flag

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by IDonT, Mar 2, 2007.

  1. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    ONE F-22 LOSS AT RED FLAG ATTRIBUTED TO BAD TACTICS: The U.S. Air Force says that its F-22 fighter's debut in a Red Flag aerial combat training exercise with coalition forces underscored the known attributes of the stealthy jet, though the demonstration did not include trials of its most exotic electronic attack capabilities. Employment of electronic attack tactics, which are inherently offered by the F-22's Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, was not included in the exercise that took place this month. The friendly "blue" force lost one F-22 during the exercise, Col. Tom Bergeson, who was the air expeditionary wing commander for the Red Flag, says. He attributes the loss to a confusing "mulligan," whereby an enemy "red" fighter regenerated or re-entered the fight unbeknownst to the blue forces. "We made some tactical mistakes and one slipped through," Bergeson said. Bergeson also praised software developers for a quick turnaround after the four lead F-22s of a 12-ship deployment to Kadena Air Base, Japan, recently encountered navigation computer problems upon crossing the International Date Line. "It wasn't anything catastrophic," Bergeson said, though the computers would not have been able to provide accurate navigation data to divert locations without the fix. But the decision was made to send the aircraft back to Hawaii as a "better-safe-than-sorry approach." (Aerospace Daily & Defense Report)
     
  2. bd popeye
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    bd popeye The Last Jedi
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    I've never like these excersises with restrictions in place. Why restrict what the Raptor can do? If it is so superior why not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt?

    I was in an S-3 squadron many years ago and during an ASW excersise we were not permitted to use certian tactics and aircraft systems. Why? So the "orange" forces would have a chance. Ridiculous...
     
  3. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    Fog of war + lapse of situational awareness + stress = loss.
    Things like this happens in war. That is why Red Flag exists, to minimized such things when the actual thing happens.

    Red Flag has a very steep learning curve. Blue forces are typically slaughtered by the Red force in the beginning of the exercise. Aggressor squadrons are some of the best pilots in the Airforce. If these pilots only manage to shot down 1 F-22, that says alot about the F-22 in actual combat conditions.
     
  4. Roger604
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    Roger604 Senior Member

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    Like Totoro said, mere detection can be done at a much longer range than tracking or engagement or identification.

    An F-22 can be detected at a distance, a J-10 pilot will know it's there before the F-22 can distinguish a J-7 drone from the J-10. Besides, if the F-22's radar is turned on to try to identify bogeys, it's emissions will be detected anyway -- regardless of its RCS.

    The question is whether or not a J-7 drone can be modified to be so indistinguishable from a J-10 that an F-22 will be within missile engagement range before the F-22 can figure out which bogey is the real McCoy.

    If it can, then an F-22 has no choice but to shoot at all the bogeys, most of which are J-7 drones. Once it runs out of missiles, the only thing it can do is flee before being intercepted.

    Again, distinguishing a decoy from a J-10 by mere radar alone is extremely difficult. Can the E-3 do this before the J-10 gets close enough to shoot missiles at the F-22? Can the E-3 do this before the J-10 gets close enough to shoot missiles at the E-3?? :D

    Not really, if the F-22 is over China, the J-10 wouldn't even be its biggest threat. An integrated air defense network with multi-static radars and other passive sensors can detect, track and engage a stealth target.

    Again, a long-wave early warning radar like that on an AWACS can detect an F-22 far far out. As a high value asset, it would be protected by escorts and the F-22 would be intercepted before it can get close enough to be a threat to the AWACS.

    No it's not! C'mon....... BVR gunkills :confused:

    The F-22 will be in IR missile range -- and then visual range -- before gun kills are possible. By the time the gun comes into play, you're into a close turning dog-fight. Not a good situation for an F-22 against the J-10... or the J-7 for that matter!
     
  5. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    I'm putting Point Blank's reply here:

    Don't forget the powerful ESM suites onboard the F-22 and the E-3. Each radar type has it's own unique signature; one can tell the difference between different types of aircraft from their emission signatures. That includes everything from the radar, to datalinks, radios, etc. The E-3 is particularly capable of distinguishing between different emission signatures; I know the E-3 is capable of telling the difference between a Toyota Corolla and a Honda Civic, from their electronic emission signatures.

    Also, don't forget the powerful force amplification of the F-22; in one exercise, once the F-22's ran out of missiles, they acted as AEW platforms and directed non-stealthy aircraft into position to kill other enemy aircraft.
     
  6. Roger604
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    Roger604 Senior Member

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    The Chinese are very advanced in radar technology and fitting a decoy to emit the same pattern of signals as the J-10 radar should be well within capabilities.

    Of course, having non-stealthy aircraft in support puts them at risk too.
     
  7. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    Lets put parameters here.

    You do know the F-22 does not operate in a vacuum but is part of a combined arms team. We don't want to put the full weight of the US assets against your J-10 J-7 tactic.


    Roger to answer your question: the E-3 can tell the difference between a J-7 and a J-10 far longer than the J-10 missiles can shoot. A drone J-7 emits radiation noise due to its being remotely controlled. One more thing, the PLAAF has never showed the command and control capability of coordinating a large amount of aircraft for the operation you are suggesting.

    You can detect the F-22 by your eyesight before it even registers on your radar, that is if you know where to look.

    As I stated earlier,over 90 percent of air to air victories were "stealth kills" - where the person being shot down did not even know the enemy was there until bullets slammed into their aircraft. It is a factor of luck, positioning, and situational awareness. Its been done since WWI. The F-22 gives you these things while preventing you from seeing it.

    Here is a link to a US exercise involving the F-22.
    http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2006/articles/jul_06/alaska/index.html

    Achieving nine aerial victories on a single mission qualifies for bragging rights in any fighter pilot circle even if those victories occur in simulated Red/Blue engagements. An F-22 pilot from the 27th Fighter Squadron from Langley AFB, Virginia, accomplished that very feat in June at Northern Edge exercises in Alaska. Six AMRAAMs, two Sidewinders, and one burst of rounds from a Gatling gun account for the total. Nine may not be the ultimate maximum: he had ammunition left in the gun. For aviation history buffs, nine victories equal the real-world US record of Cmdr. David McCampbell, an F6F Hellcat pilot and the Navy's leading ace in World War II.

    Capt. Schantz adds some specifics. "F-22 pilots have the ability to use sensors to a greater degree than any other fighter pilots because of the Raptor's sensor fusion capability," he explains. "The F-22 scope is fully integrated to show the entire battlespace. In the heat of the fight, we can provide necessary information to other pilots at that right moment because we are fighter pilots talking to other fighter pilots."

    North To AlaskaSchantz explains that, even though an AWACS has thirty radar controllers aboard with a lot of combined situational awareness, information on their scopes is displayed as radar blips. "Our F-22 blips show what type of aircraft we're seeing," he says. "The information is deciphered for us so that we can sort friend from foe much more easily."


    Here is what actual pilots who have went against the F-22 has stated:

    http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041725

    "The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

    "We [even] tried to overload them with numbers and failed," said Colonel Bruce. "It's humbling to fly against the F-22." This is a remarkable testimony because the Red Flag aggressor pilots are renowned for their skill and experience. Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, 94th Fighter Squadron commander, said the aggressor forces represent the most lethal threat friendly forces would ever face.
     
    #7 IDonT, Jul 25, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2007
  8. Clouded Leopard
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    Clouded Leopard Junior Member

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    1. Doesn't the F-22 have a frequency-hopping AESA radar that doesn't permit itself to be detected even when turned on?


    2. Don't the F-22s use a wingman system where a wingman hanging maybe 40-70 kilometers behind, in safety, illuminates his radar, and the front leader keeps his turned off, so that the wingman can feed information to the flight leader via datalink?
     
  9. Roger604
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    Roger604 Senior Member

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    That's the advertised capability of the radar. How well does it work and under what conditions does it work / not work -- we don't know for now.

    F-22 can be used as a mini-AWACS. No doubt it's very effective. The point of the earlier discussion is that F-22 doesn't carry a lot of missiles, so if you field a mix of cheap aircraft (maybe UAV) and real fighters, it would have difficulty distinguishing between them at BVR range and have to expend its missiles. Once the F-22 is out of missiles, it is very vulnerable.
     
  10. balance
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    balance Junior Member

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    The only 50-50 situation for both Raptor team and J-10 team is like this

    The raptor moves with F-16 and F-15
    The J-10 is helped by 4 multi layered SAM (short, medium, long, and portable)+ J-7 decoy
    In this scenario, I think the probability is still in favor of F-22 team, but the edge is not that big anymore since the J-10 team receives ground support(even sea help with SAM from destroyers which function like an outpost Air Defence)
    Just my humble opinion!
     
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