精忠報國 or 盡忠報國 (Yue Fei's tattoo)

greatboi

New Member
Yue Fei's tattoo is most likely a myth. It has been said that no one in his era mentioned anything about his loyalty tattoo. Even his own great grandson did not mention anything about a tattoo in his biography of his great grandfather. Since this tattoo has been considered a major symbol of his resolute loyalty to his nation, his great grandson would have mentioned it if he had one. The earliest mention of Yue Fei's tattoo was in Yuan dynasty (at least 100-200 years after his death), which described the tattoo as 尽忠报国. Then in the Ming dynasty, the tattoo became 赤心救国. The earliest mention of 精忠报国 came in 1552, almost half a millennium after his death (he was killed in 1142).

So none of the versions of the tattoo was modern invention. Jiang Jingguo simply chose the earliest version. And all of the versions seem to be fictional.

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section 岳母刺字


Hmmm, lots of conflicting theories.

Regardless of the tattoo being a myth, thats a different discussion.

Why would the spelling change from time to time? Is it because like RedSword mentioned that people do not want to "quote" others out of respect?

And do all spelling have basically the same meaning?

Also most sources seem to be wikipedia type of sources. None of them are "official" or "academic".

More pics of the "精" spelling:

DSC_0786.JPG


7179490733_c0742d15b5_z.jpg


How ever, this pic seems to indicate that Yue Fei signed this phrase and it has the "盡 " spelling.

images


2008102217552493_2.jpg
 
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vesicles

Colonel
Hmmm, lots of conflicting theories.

Regardless of the tattoo being a myth, thats a different discussion.

Well, I think whether it is a myth is very important in this discussion. If it is a myth, that means there is no absolutely correct version of the tattoo since the tattoo did not exist in the 1st place. If that's the case, the discussion becomes how later generations come up with the various versions, instead of figuring out what the original was.

Why would the spelling change from time to time? Is it because like RedSword mentioned that people do not want to "quote" others out of respect?

And do all spelling have basically the same meaning?

Most of the mentioning of the tattoo came from fictional novels in the Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties when this type of novels were very popular. Almost all the famous ancient Chinese novels were written in this time, the 3 kingdom, Journey to the West, Shui Hu, Sui Tang, etc. So it all depended on how the authors understood the phrase. Some author might think "尽" could represent Yue Fei's loyalty better while others might think "精" would be better. It's all about personal taste and interpretation. It's like the famous story of a poet spending a lot of time contemplating whether to use "to push" or to use "to knock" in one of his poem. He finally decided on one word while someone else in a similar situation might pick the other word.

I don't think it's because people not wanting to quote others. There have been many many writings about Yue Fei, only 2-3 versions of the tattoo exist. This means many authors have been quoting others. Additionally, Those carvings shown in the original post of this thread were all phrases that had been quoted by many for centuries and were NOT invented by the writers of the carving. So in other words, they were all quoting others. Again, it's only the matter of personal taste that dictated which version they picked.

Also most sources seem to be wikipedia type of sources. None of them are "official" or "academic".

Yes, most sources are Wiki type. But many of those have citations of the original articles and list names of the books, authors, time, places, etc, such as this:
曾孙岳珂所著的《金陀革编》也没有记录,
元人所编的《宋史本传》,书云:“初命何铸鞠之,飞裂裳,以背示铸,有‘尽忠报国’四大字,深入肤理”,
明代成化年间创作的《精忠记》,也仅提及岳飞背脊有“赤心救国”字样,
嘉靖三十一年(1552年)熊大本的《武穆精忠传》记有岳飞请工匠在背上深刺“精忠报国”四字,
明末,由李梅草创,冯梦龙改定的《精忠旗传奇》,内称:“史言飞背有‘精忠报国’四大字,系飞令张宪所刺”,
“岳母刺字”则最早见于清乾隆年间,杭州钱彩评《精忠说岳》,该书第22回,回目“结义盟王佐假名,刺精忠岳母训子”.
Citing original work, giving names of the authors, title of the work, time when it was written, as well as what was written in these books, this is as academic as you can get. The discussion in 百度百科 is very academic, in a sense that it had a hypothesis at the beginning and presented evidence to support the hypothesis. No hear-say, no guesses, no imagining of any sort... Only solid evidence with names, time, titles.

However, in no way I am saying that the hypothesis in 百度百科 is correct. Simply, their point is the most convincing with the most solid evidence. If you disagree with this particular hypothesis, that is perfect fine. The only thing is you have to present your evidence to support your hypothesis. In fact, I would expect many such evidence exist. Otherwise, we would not be talking about this supposed tattoo. Discrediting the evidence presented in 百度百科 is NOT the way to do it.

Also, compared to those discussions based on hear-say and guesses, any source is better than none.

Also, 有学者认为,此时的“精忠报国”四字是受宋高宗御赐“精忠岳飞”4字的误导
This might be why people use "精"...
 
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vesicles

Colonel
More pics of the "精" spelling:

DSC_0786.JPG


7179490733_c0742d15b5_z.jpg


How ever, this pic seems to indicate that Yue Fei signed this phrase and it has the "盡 " spelling.

images


2008102217552493_2.jpg

I don't think these photos can be used to argue anything. No one knows who wrote these. Was any of them knowledgeable in Chinese history? You and I can paint one version or another on the wall and that means nothing as to which version is correct.

The most laughable one would be the last where "Yur Fei" signed the writing. If anything, it was Yue's mother who came up with it. How could Yue Fei stole his mother's idea?
 
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vesicles

Colonel
OK, new theory...

尽忠报国 originated much earlier before Sui/Tang dynasties (~500 A.D.) in 北史·颜之仪传: “公等备受朝恩,当尽忠报国。” And 北史 was written by 李延寿 in the Tang dynasty.

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the earliest mention of 精忠报国 was found in 《精忠旗传奇》 which was written in Ming dynasty and was thought to be misled by the title of “精忠岳飞” given to Yue Fei by the Song emperor. 有学者认为,此时的“精忠报国”四字是受宋高宗御赐“精忠岳飞”4字的误导


So 尽忠报国 is NOT limited to Yue Fei at all since it came out almost 400-500 years before Yue Fei. It has been used as 成語 to describe being absolutely loyal to one's nation since ~500 A.D. So it is a general term. The author of 《宋史·岳飞传》used 尽忠报国 because it was available to him and had been in general use in his time. It can be understood as Yue's mother put the already existing term on her son's back to remind him to be loyal to his nation. In other word, she "quoted" a well-known existing 成語.

Later author 李梅草创,冯梦龙改定的《精忠旗传奇》changed it to ‘精忠报国’ because Yue Fei had the title of “精忠岳飞” given to him by the Song emperor. So They thought 精忠 would be more appropriate for Yue Fei. And looking at the name of the novel, 《精忠旗传奇》, which describes Yue Fei with the title of “精忠岳飞”, it makes perfect sense for the authors to go with “精忠报国”. Everything ties together to make a unified theme: 精忠.

SOOOO, all in all, when you see a painting/carving of 尽忠报国, it may NOT be intended to link to Yue Fei at all. It may be just a general attempt to encourage people to be loyal to their nation. And 精忠报国 may be uniquely linked to Yue Fei because the term was specifically created for Yue Fei by later admirers of Yue Fei, based on one of his titles.

So, if the tattooing could happen, it would most likely be 尽忠报国 since this term was already in general use at the time of Yue Fei. His mother was educated but not nearly talented enough to come up with her own 成語. So using an existing 成語 would make sense. Also, the chances of his mother coming up with 精忠报国 coinciding with the Song emperor coming up with the title of 精忠岳飞 was simply tooooooo slim since Yue's tattoo was not known to anyone until the very end, days before his execution.
 
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greatboi

New Member
OK, new theory...


SOOOO, all in all, when you see a painting/carving of 尽忠报国, it may NOT be intended to link to Yue Fei at all. It may be just a general attempt to encourage people to be loyal to their nation. And 精忠报国 may be uniquely linked to Yue Fei because the term was specifically created for Yue Fei by later admirers of Yue Fei, based on one of his titles.

So, if the tattooing could happen, it would most likely be 尽忠报国 since this term was already in general use at the time of Yue Fei. His mother was educated but not nearly talented enough to come up with her own 成語. So using an existing 成語 would make sense. Also, the chances of his mother coming up with 精忠报国 coinciding with the Song emperor coming up with the title of 精忠岳飞 was simply tooooooo slim since Yue's tattoo was not known to anyone until the very end, days before his execution.


Yeah your right. If the tattoo is a myth, then this is about which phrase relates to Yue Fei and that's exactly what I wanted to know.
I mean nobody can prove if he had a tattoo, but I like the story!

Anyways, thanks for the research. I appreciate it, 'cause I can't read Chinese. This clears a lot up.

btw what does “精忠岳飞” mean in English?
 
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vesicles

Colonel
Yeah your right. If the tattoo is a myth, then this is about which phrase relates to Yue Fei and that's exactly what I wanted to know.
I mean nobody can prove if he had a tattoo, but I like the story!

Anyways, thanks for the research. I appreciate it, 'cause I can't read Chinese. This clears a lot up.

btw what does “精忠岳飞” mean in English?

精忠 means being utmost loyal and 岳飞 is the name Yue Fei. It basically means Yue Fei is a person most loyal to the Song dynasty and the Song emperor. It was a title that the Song emperor gave to Yue Fei when he was winning battles like crazy. It was sewn on a huge flag. From that time on, Yue Fei displayed that flag with the title to all his battles.

BTW, you mentioned you got a tattoo of 精忠報國. I hope it's on your back :)
 
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greatboi

New Member
精忠 means being utmost loyal and 岳飞 is the name Yue Fei. It basically means Yue Fei is a person most loyal to the Song dynasty and the Song emperor. It was a title that the Song emperor gave to Yue Fei when he was winning battles like crazy. It was sewn on a huge flag. From that time on, Yue Fei displayed that flag with the title to all his battles.

BTW, you mentioned you got a tattoo of 精忠報國. I hope it's on your back :)

Ha ha, nah, I didn't want it on my back. Got it on the back of my upper right arm.

It's going to be part of a sleeve. I'll post a picture later.
 

greatboi

New Member
Got my tatto done!
Here´s a video I made!


[video=youtube;SJyvcUa20sM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJyvcUa20sM[/video]>
 

ztz472947849

Just Hatched
Registered Member
盡忠報國 was exactly on YueFei's back,精忠岳飞 was written on a flag by 宋高宗(a empire of Song Dynasty) to apprciate and conmemarate YueFei.since 盡and精 pronouces almost the same and either of them could express the right meaning,ordinary chinese people use both of 2 spelling today,in mainland china,simplified editon of 盡 is used which is 尽.and 報國 is gonna to be 报国


Translations&Spelling(number after PINYIN are tone codes)

1.盡忠報國 fight for motherland to the end with royalty (jin4 zhong1 bao4 guo2)
2.精忠报国 a hero that fight for motherland to the end with royalty(bt its a adj.) (jing1 zhong1 bao4 guo2)
3.岳飞 YueFei
 
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