British Military Pictures Thread

[Obi Wan Russell]

The two Island configuration puzzled me too, but it kind of grows on you. The forward island is the ships bridge and fore funnel combined while the aft Island is Flyco (flying control) and the aft funnel (stack) and added together would take up about as much space as a regular island. The arrangement also allows for some redundancy in case of battle damage, ie the aft island can double as an emergency bridge and the fore one as flyco if needed.
Glad to see other arms of the British forces depicted here, after all I did call this the British Military Pic Thread.This is an open party, anyone can join.
I have some more pics of cross deck ops, and here they are!


Top row; HMS Hermes cross decking with USS Ranger, hang on didn't the UK Gov. say Hermes was too small to operate Phantoms? third from left is a Banshee from USS Coral Sea getting a close look at HMS Eagle's deck in 1955
2nd row; two shots of F-4s from VF-102 from USS Independence aboard HMS Ark Royal in 1975, and a cople more of that USMC F-4 that 'joined' 892 NAS for a while.

[bd popeye]

Obi Wan..U da' man!..Thanks so much for posting those pictures.

I love Phantoms. You could see them comming. All that black exhaust. And they landed so hard. If you were in the hangar deck and a F-4 landed..you knew it...Tough aircraft..very tough.

How old are those pics of the Ranger aircraft "cross-decking" as we use to say?

[Obi Wan Russell]

The Ranger/Hermes cross decking pics date from January 1963 off the Phillipines. I've heard some criticism of the Phantom for it's smoky exhausts, but I preferred to think of it as an open invitation to enemy aircraft to 'come and have a go if you think you're hard enough', kind of way. British Phantoms had RR Spey engines, which were a lot less smoky, and the US nearly bought the spey engined F-4 for the USN. Designated the F-4L and would have been suitable for Essex class CVs, but things got in the way as usual and the order never materialised. Perhaps they couldn't get their heads round the fact that it would have been an Americanised Angliscised American Aircraft. Try saying that after a few beers!

from left; 892 NAS spent two weeks aboard USS Saratoga in 1969 for Carrier Qualifications during which their extra hot Spey Afterburners bent the 'Sara's JBDs! Middle two pics; 892 ops aboard the Ark Royal, and in the last pic you can make out the words 'USS SARATOGA' under the tail of the nearest plane.

after the demise of the Navy's only F-4 training sqn (767 NAS) in 1972, the Phantom Training Flight (PTF) was formed with seven FG1s under RAF control but Navy manned. The last F-4K in RN colours is one of the first manufactured and is displayed at the Fleet Air Arm Museum at RNAS Yeovliton in Somerset aboard the 'ARK ROYAL!'

[bd popeye]

British Phantoms had RR Spey engines, which were a lot less smoky, and the US nearly bought the spey engined F-4 for the USN. Designated the F-4L and would have been suitable for Essex class CVs, but things got in the way as usual and the order never materialised.

Well Obi Wan since you are a Jedi Knight I have to believe you..But as someone that served on a Essex class(USS Hancock CVA-19)..I don't think an Essex class could have handled a F-4. It's was just to heavy for the coating the USN had over the wooden flight deck. As it was F-8 Crusaders tore that deck up. In fact as one of those brave souls that stood between the Catapults during launch F-8's threw up splinters when they took off.(Uncovered wood planks ran along side the catapults) Also landing may have been a problem . Because of a (daytime) crash that I witnessed F-8's were forbidden to land on an Essex class at night after 1975...That is because new steel had been added installed under the arresting wire and it was raised a few inches and caused havoc with Crusader landings...Maybe the USN had some sort of re-fit planned if this re-engine plan came into being...Deck space would have not been a problem. Demension wise it was only slightly larger (hieght,width and folded wing span) than a Crusader. The F-4 would have had only one foot clearance in the Hangar deck...

Just my 2 cents worth..

[Obi Wan Russell]

Probably explains why they didn't buy it. Someone at McDonnell Douglas probably thought 'if an F-4K will fly from a British CV, they're about the same size as an Essex, maybe we can sell these to the US Navy too,' without looking too closely at the flight decks of the Essex class. When the Labour Government of 1966 cancelled the new CVA-01 program the US Government offered Britain three Essex class for next to nothing in order to keep the RN in the Carrier club (which three was never specified, but may even have been three of the unmodernised vessels so they could be refitted to British standards from the start). Having made one stupid descision the British government followed it up with another one and said no. Then to compound this they announced that the only operation Carriers were needed for was covering Amphibious ops, and as we would only do this in future alongside the USN, Carriers would be phased out altogether.
Since then, the RN has commissioned FIVE Carriers, by the simple expedient of not calling them carriers. Politicians may be opposed to them, but most don't even know what a carrier looks like.

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan Russell

Probably explains why they didn't buy it. Someone at McDonnell Douglas probably thought 'if an F-4K will fly from a British CV, they're about the same size as an Essex, maybe we can sell these to the US Navy too,' without looking too closely at the flight decks of the Essex class.

F-4 pilots had a saying.."Kick the tires..light the fires"..I can't imangine that afterburner light off on an Essex class..It would have brought that previous statement to fruition...jeez..On the JFK and Midway those F-4's shook the deck when they went to full afterburners prior to launch...Sparks would fly off the jet blast defelectors from the intense heat. Exhaust so intense it was blue...Awesome sight..Best sight though was an armed F-4 getting shot off the ship..awesome. Those USN paint jobs from "back in the day" are awesome...That F-4 pictured is from the Sun Downers of VF-111

This picture from the USS Coral Sea (CVA-43) about 1970...

[Obi Wan Russell]

I heard an F-4 pilot say that it's wings are just for decoration, it's a Rocket Ship! The F-4K used by the RN had an extra extensible (by 40inches) nose leg to give it a larger angle of attack on launch, but this meant the engines were pointing more at the deck when full afterburners were selected for launch. As I mentioned earlier, 892 NAS took its' aircraft for a two week cruise in the med aboard USS Saratoga in 69 to gain carrier quals as Ark Royal was still in dockyard hands. During that time they operated as part of SARA's air wing but they did cause damage to her Jet Blast Deflectors, so the effect they might have had on an Essex's flight deck doesn't bear thinking about...
Ark Royal was fited with special water cooled JBDs, when her sister ship HMS Eagle carried out trials with 700P NAS Phantoms in 68 she was fitted with a large steel plate behind her cats (her non-cooled JBDs were not used) to absorb the heat from the afterburners. It glowed white hot, and was cooled down by fire hoses after each launch so that the next aircraft could be moved across it. Eagle's captain asked if it could be kept aboard for emergencies but the MOD didn't want anyone to know that she could operate F-4s so easily. The excuse for her premature retirement was that she would be too costly to convert for Phantoms, so she couldn't be seen with them after the trials were over. Hermes was officially too small for Phantoms, but had also operated them in 63 as shown above, so a lot of lies were told at the time to justify a stupid policy that cost many lives in the Falklands some years later.

first two pics; F-4K trials aboard Eagle in 68, note steel plate behind the aircraft secured by chains to the deck, and three more shots of the USMC on Ark's deck.

[Finn McCool]

The rising sun on the tail is the coolest...sweet pic popeye. If I were a fighter pilot I would either have the rising sun on the tail or my helmet.

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

The rising sun on the tail is the coolest...sweet pic popeye. If I were a fighter pilot I would either have the rising sun on the tail or my helmet.

The Sun Downers aircraft back in the day were way too cool...
Got bad news for you about putting the sunburst on your helmet if you where a USN/USMC pilot. You can't. All flight helmets have to have a certian percentage of while reflective tape..About 75%..not sure but I know it is a lot...Here is the history of VF-111. And depending on your squadron designs it's helmets that's what your helmet will look like..Forget that Top Gun crap...

http://www.topedge.com/alley/squadron/pac/vf111his.htm



Ahem..I found this pic of the Ark Royal with F-4's on deck..

[Kampfwagen]

Eh. May as well throw in some sub-par images. I swear, I have no idea where you guys get those pictures but you have to start sharing!



Royal Marines in Afghanistan

http://photos.jibble.org/albums/Yeov...y_IMG_9285.jpg

More pictures of the Royal Marines on a training exersise/demonstration. (Location Unknown)

http://photos.jibble.org/albums/Yeov...g_IMG_9305.jpg

Same Exersize. Royal Marines Landrover being dropped by Sea-King.



RAF Harriers on Artic/Winter exersise, painted in Artic Paint Scheme.



RAF Chinook deployed by the HMS Ocean

[Obi Wan Russell]

CVA-01, also to have been named HMS Queen Elizabeth (CVA-02 was to have been HMS Duke of Edinburgh). The original plan in 1963 was to build five vessels of this class to replace the five existing CVs (Eagle, Ark Royal, Victorious, Hermes and Centaur) during the seventies, altough a building program of that size would have run on into the eighties. The Air Group for each ship was planned to be 18 F-4K Phantom FG1s, 18 Buccaneer S-2s, four AEW aircraft (a business jet conversion was proposed, more likely a version of the E-2 Hawkeye would have been acquired) and five Sea King ASW/SAR Helos (Ark Royals' post 1970 air group was similar but smaller, with 12 F-4s, 14 Buccaneers, 4 Gannets and six Sea Kings). By 1965 the number of ships had been reduced to four, and studies were in hand to see if the Navy could manage with just three. Then the RAF's top brass started spreading the same sort of anti-carrier nonsense that has recently resurfaced here with regards to the Varyag, and also re-drew the map of the world to reinforce their argument that land based F-111s they were hoping to buy could do the same job as the CVs. The 'Healy Axe' fell on the CV force, then rebounded on the RAF when the F-111s were cancelled too. Thus the RAF then 'stole' the Navys' F-4s and Buccaneer S-2s, and stripped the Navys' Gannets of their AEW radar to be installed in decrepit Shackleton Maritime patrol aircraft to produce bargain basement AWACs that were still on duty in the late eighties!

Oh, and Kampfwagen, as to where we get these pictures, all I can say is Seek and ye shall find. Keep your pics coming, all are welcome here. But please, THUMBNAILS! So the pages don't take all day to load!

[bd popeye]

Golly gee Obi Wan! Those are great pics! Wherever did you get them???

Too bad the UK decide not to pursue their CVA 01 concept. More than likely ithey would still be in service today.

Looks like the RN had the same problem with the RAF the USN with the USAF after WWII...Those Air Force boys are a "royal" pain in the butt!

[Obi Wan Russell]

I always thought the Americans were right to retain two services instead of three up until 1947, and remember the RAF was formed on April 1st 1918! CVA-01 went beyond the angled deck concept by introducing the 'paralell deck', which would have worked even better on US CVNs due to their larger size. CVA-01 was supposed to replace HMS Victorious in 1972, CVA-02 was to replace Ark Royal in 74-76, CVA-03 would replace Eagle in 78-80 and CVA-04 would have replaced Hermes in 82-84. Even now, the design looks very futuristic and would compare well with any modern designs. Note the combined funnels and masts, flyco extending over the deck for maximum visibility, and the extended 'Alaskan Highway' outboard of the bridge to enable Aircraft movements without interfering with flying ops.
One statistic worth bearing in mind about the RAF, since the end of WW2, despite spending billions on the latest Air defence aircraft and starving the Fleet Air Arm of resources, has only shot down ONE enemy aircraft in combat. The FAA is responsible for all other air to air kills in the postwar period. To be fair, they are good at 'mud moving', but the Vulcan missions to the Falklands in 82 were a huge waste of resources that achieved nothing militarily, and were only mounted by the RAF to avoid being totally left out of the action. There are still 'landlubbers' who are trying to sink the CVFs before they are built thinking they can divert the money to more land based aircraft. Doesn't work that way. Money cut from one part of the defence budget doesn't go to another part, it goes to prop up some failing part of the Government's program and everybody loses. The RAF has committed it's Harriers and their replacements to part time carrier ops in support of the FAA's sqns. Cut the carriers, and the politicians will just say we don't need the aircraft they would have operated either and say good bye to the F-35. They don't think like normal people.
Did you know there was a documentary series filmed aboard the Ark Royal during 76? great footage of the air ops and revealing shots of everyday life in the RN in the 70's. Might be available on dvd in the states, it was a BBC series called 'Sailor'. I liked the comments in the show from a Florida Policeman when asked if British Sailors ever caused trouble, said that he wished all visiting sailors were Brits! "They have a laugh, get drunk, and fall asleep on the beach. They never start fights and are always polite even when drunk!"

Two shots of Avro Vulcan B2s, middle;HMS Illustrious passes HMS Hermes on the latter's return from the Falklands 1982, HMS Invincible with Phalanx guns early 1983, HMS Hermes in 1981 (note deck approach sights on forward end of angled deck)

[Obi Wan Russell]

Just so the RAF boys and girls don't feel left out (I've nothing against them, just their misguided top brass) here's a selection of aircraft flown by the 'light blue', including a number of second hand Royal Navy types!

The Phantom in low viz grey is an ex-USMC F-4J, one of 15 purchased in 1983 to make up numbers after a sqn of FGR2s was stationed in the Falklands, and they retained their original engines making them unique in British service. They were designated F-4J(UK) rather than FGR3.

Here is the Phantom's partner in the air defence role during the 70's and 80's (a job it carried out alone in the sixties), the English Electric Lightning F6. A true Rocket ship!

The primary RAF strike aircraft in the 70's and 80's, the Blackburn Buccaneer S2B (two thirds of which were ex-FAA)
You can paint these pirates in olive drab or desert pink, but their naval haeritage will always show through. The RAF fell in love with the Bucc after deriding it's lack of supersonic speed all through the sixties, when they discovered nothing else could catch it at sea level. The USAF changed the rules at Red Flag because the subsonic 'Banana' kept beating the latest supersonic jet fighters they had spent so much of the US taxpayers money on!

[Obi Wan Russell]

Some other RAF types...

from left; The Englsh Electric Canberra (this one is a PR9), the only British jet other than the Harrier to be procured in large numbers for the USA, The Handley Page Victor K2 Tanker (converted from a nuclear bomber), the SEPECAT Jaguar GR4 (very nearly a naval aircraft too, the french originally wanted it for the Clemenceau class), Westland Wessex HC2 SAR Helo licence built version of the Sikorsky S58 and it's big sister, the Westland Sea King HAR3 (Sikorsky S61).

The AVRO Shackleton AEW2, the RAFs early 1970s solution to AEW using an early1950s aircraft equipped with second hand late 1940s era Radar (AN/APS-20) taken from Fairey Gannets, And the BAe Nimrod MR2, a Maritime Patrol Aircraft derived from the DeHavilland Comet 4 Airliner. The Shackleton was the ultimate development of the wartime Lancaster heavy bomber, but had a redesigned fuselage and RR Griffon engines instead of Merlins.

More Jags, GR1s and GR3s, and a Wessex HU5 (ex-RN). Also, the ubiquitous Hawker Hunter T7 and another case of 'what might have been' the BAC TSR2.