US military news thread

[bd popeye]

Great job presenting a botched mission as a success.

Finn that's easy for you that has never served to say. What was "Botched"? The pilot was rescued. Mission accomplished..story over.

[Finn McCool]

Finn that's easy for you that has never served to say. What was "Botched"? The pilot was rescued. Mission accomplished..story over.

Obviously the servicemen were operating in a very difficult situation. And I suppose that yes, you could technically say that it was successful because the pilot was rescued. But when you kill a bunch of your allies in the course of an operation, I don't think that it can be considered a great victory. To me this incident is analogous to several different instances in which NATO forces accidentally bombed Afghan police. I don't think any of those missions would be considered a success. But it's always tough to second-guess situations like this.

[bd popeye]

But it's always tough to second-guess situations like this.

So true..none of us where there.

But when you kill a bunch of your allies in the course of an operation

Ernest Hemmingway said..

"Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime. Ask the infantry and ask the dead".

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Army removes munitions from sea floor in Hawaii

The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday Jul 21, 2011 22:00:36 EDT

HONOLULU — The Army has recovered 32 munitions from the ocean floor off Oahu’s Waianae Coast this month during a project to clear away most of the weapons the military dumped there decades ago.
Related reading


The Army is nearly halfway through a three-week experimental project using a remote controlled robot to remove the weapons.

U.S. Army Garrison Hawaii said in a statement Thursday the Army has processed 12 of the munitions and treated and destroyed 73 pounds of explosives.

It’s been difficult for the robot to remove the weapons as coral growth has basically cemented many to the ocean floor. The Army is leaving heavily coral encrusted munitions in place.

There are an estimated 2,000 weapons in the area nicknamed “Ordnance Reef.”

Maybe now we can get the Raptors back where they belong in the sky's.

Carbon monoxide suspected in F-22 grounding

By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 21, 2011 14:17:42 EDT

The prolonged grounding of the Air Force’s F-22 Raptor fleet may be due to carbon monoxide entering the cockpit via the aircraft’s oxygen system, two sources said.

Service leaders grounded the stealthy twin-engine fighter May 3, after 14 incidents when F-22 pilots suffered “hypoxia-like symptoms.”

Air Force officials initially suspected a problem with the aircraft’s On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), but that is looking less likely, the sources said.

Instead, investigators now suspect that carbon monoxide generated by the plane’s jet engines is getting into the cockpit.

Part of the problem may be the procedures used at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, where most of the known incidents have occurred. Because of the harsh climate, pilots often start their jet engines inside a hangar before taking off. Investigators suspect that exhaust gases are getting trapped in the building and subsequently sucked back into the engines, where they enter the bleed air intakes that supply the OBOGS, sources said.

The design and placement of the intakes, which are located within the engines’ compressor sections, are fairly standard for jet aircraft.

There is no immediate fix in sight, sources said.

Asked for comment, an Air Force spokesman said he had no further information at this time.

“The safety of our aircrews is paramount, and the Air Force continues to carefully study all factors of F-22 flight safety,” said Maj. Chad Steffey.

One aviation safety expert said that if the hypoxia is being caused by carbon monoxide in the cockpit, the gas is likely being generated by the plane’s engines.

“I would think that it has something to do with exhaust flow somehow getting into the oxygen generating system,” said Hans Weber, who sat on the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s Research, Engineering and Development Advisory Committee, and is president of Tecop International, a San Diego consulting firm.

Even a small amount of the colorless, odorless gas can have serious effects, Weber said.

“It doesn’t take a large concentration of carbon monoxide to start affecting people, making them ill — and not just ill but really diminishing their ability to perceive anything.”

Weber said the difficulty of the fix will depend on the problem.

If the carbon monoxide is being ingested because the engines are being started in confined spaces, a fix could be as simple as moving the jet outside, Weber said. If the engine must be started inside the hangar, the startup of the oxygen system might be delayed until the jet is out in the open, he said.

But if dangerous levels of carbon monoxide are entering the cockpit despite these changes, the Air Force might have to add bulky cartridges or scrubbers to the life-support system, he said.

The Navy has had similar problems with the OBOGS on its F/A-18 Hornet, which sucked carbon monoxide into its oxygen system during carrier operations.

Between 2002 and 2009, Hornet aviators suffered 64 reported episodes of hypoxia, including two that killed the pilots, according to the July-August 2010 issue of “Approach,” a Navy Safety Center publication.

Some 77 percent of the incidents happened in single-seat Hornets, which saw 3.2 incidents per 100,000 flight hours. The two-seat version saw 1.7 incidents per 100,000 flight hours.

According to Navy documents, “Prolonged exposure to jet engine exhaust while sitting behind another aircraft waiting to take off and operating with low bleed air pressures can result in carbon monoxide (CO) breaking through … into the pilot’s breathing gas.”

The Navy modified the planes’ OBOGS to fix the problem, has had no recent similar incidents, and is not currently investigating the systems, Naval Air Systems Command officials said.

Taiwan Fans good news... Maybe... Hopefully

U.S. to rule on Taiwan F-16 sale by Oct. 1

Posted : Friday Jul 22, 2011 7:11:55 EDT

TAIPEI, Taiwan — A Washington-area advocate for the sale of U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets to Taiwan said Friday that a decision on the deal will come soon — and it looks like the answer may be no.

Rupert Hammond-Chambers, president of the Arlington, Va.-based U.S.-Taiwan Business Council, said in an email that the decision will be announced by Oct. 1. He said the timing — sandwiched between a planned trip to China by Vice President Joe Biden and a visit to Hawaii by Chinese leader Hu Jintao — does not bode well for the deal.

It “suggests that the Obama administration has no intention of moving forward,” he said.

The de facto U.S. embassy in Taipei could not confirm that a decision on the F-16 matter is pending.

The F-16 deal has long been a shadow hanging over the U.S. China relationship. China opposes it — and all foreign arms sales to Taiwan — because it regards the self-ruled democratic island as part of its territory and sees foreign arms sales there as interference in its affairs.

China and Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949.

Hammond-Chambers said the Oct. 1 deadline on the F-16 deal was negotiated between Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

Cornyn, whose state houses the F-16 production line, has been a strong supporter of Taiwan’s bid for the 66 relatively advanced F-16 C/Ds it originally requested in 2006. In exchange for a decision being made — and Clinton arranging the release of a long-delayed Pentagon study on Taiwan’s air force capabilities — Hammond-Chambers said Cornyn agreed to remove a Senate hold he had placed on the nomination of William Burns to be deputy secretary of state.

Cornyn’s office could not be reached for comment on Hammond-Chamber’s report.

Despite transferring recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979, the U.S. remains Taiwan’s most important foreign partner. American administrations have a congressionally mandated responsibility to provide the island with defensive weapons.

Besides the F-16 C/D deal, Taiwan also has a long pending request to the U.S. to upgrade its existing fleet of F-16 A/Bs. In his email Hammond-Chambers said the Obama administration agreed to this request in 2010 but has not yet publicly announced that.

C130's rehab.

Air Force may upgrade engines on older C-130s

By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Jul 20, 2011 18:29:00 EDT

The performance of the Air Force’s new C-130J in intra-theater lift in places like Afghanistan is so remarkable that the service may replace the engines of its older-model Hercules aircraft to increase their fuel efficiency, the service’s second highest ranking uniformed leader said Wednesday.

“Throughout the single-command area of operations, we have prioritized the use of newer, more efficient C-130Js for intra-theater airlift over older, less efficient C-130 models,” said Gen. Philip Breedlove, Air Force vice chief, at the U.S. Army & U.S. Air Force Energy Forum in Arlington, Va.

“In fact, this difference is significant enough that we are considering commercially available engines for our older C-130 fleet that would cost less in maintenance and fuel consumption.”

While re-engining older aircraft would be beneficial, the problem for the service’s accountants is that any savings from such an endeavor would mostly fall outside of the five-year budgetary cycle, Air Force undersecretary Erin Conaton said at the same conference. Conaton said she wants to make sure the Air Force not only is buying new, more efficient engines for older aircraft, but also invests in the next generation of engines.

“Those are the things I’m very conscious of trying to make sure we compete for resources as we go forward,” she said. “Because I think in times of budgetary restriction, many people look to cut the things that are of long-term benefit.”

Speaking to reporters at the conference, Kevin Geiss, deputy assistant Air Force secretary for energy, said that next-generation engine programs such as the ADaptive Versatile ENgine Technology (ADVENT) could be as much as 30 percent more fuel efficient than the current generation F119 or F135 found on the F-22 and F-35, respectively.

ADVENT, Geiss said, is currently an Air Force Research Laboratory program moving into the technology development phase.

“The estimates that we have now is that it could cut fuel consumption by about 30 percent for that fighter aircraft type of engine,” he said.

The F-35 engine, Geiss said, uses much more fuel than the F-16’s or F-15’s engine, and as such the fuel savings would be significant. Geiss added the caveat that the Lightning II’s engine, which produces about 43,000 pounds of thrust, is much more powerful than those older engines.

Geiss said he couldn’t immediately offer a timeline on when the ADVENT engine would be operational, but said that a sixth-generation follow-on to the F-35 could use such a propulsion system.

For subsonic aircraft the service is working on the Versatile, Affordable, Advanced Turbine Engines and Highly Efficient Embedded Turbine Engine programs, Geiss said. Much of the ADVENT technology would be applicable to those engines, he said. The service does have a schedule by which it intends to mature these new engine technologies but Geiss didn’t have those details on hand.

“Some of the things we still need to develop on the subsonic aircraft are the advanced materials to enable those technologies,” Geiss said. But “those three engine technologies I mentioned would be revolutionary, not evolutionary,” he said.

Greenert nominated as CNO, Ferguson VCNO

By Sam Fellman - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 21, 2011 16:38:18 EDT

Get ready for a new boss.

Adm. Jon Greenert, the current vice chief of naval operations, was formally nominated Thursday to be the 30th CNO by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. The nomination comes atop a slew of flag moves:

• Vice Adm. Mark Ferguson, the chief of naval personnel, was nominated to replace Greenert as VCNO, a position that comes with four stars. Ferguson is a 1978 Naval Academy graduate and a nuclear-trained surface warfare officer. He has commanded destroyer Benfold and Destroyer Squadron 18.

• Vice Adm. Cecil Haney was tapped to take command of Pacific Fleet. If confirmed, Haney would be the second African-American naval officer to wear four stars. Haney, now the deputy commander of U.S. Strategic Command, is a 1978 academy grad and submariner. He has commanded attack submarine Honolulu and Submarine Squadron 1.

• Vice Adm. Harry Harris, the 6th Fleet commander, was nominated for assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon and was recommended for reappointment to vice admiral. Harris is a 1978 academy graduate and naval flight officer who was born in Yokosuka, Japan.

• Vice Adm. Scott Buskirk, the 7th Fleet commander, was nominated to be chief of naval personnel and would be reappointed to vice admiral. Buskirk is a submariner and 1979 academy grad.

• Buskirk’s relief at 7th Fleet would be Rear Adm. Scott Swift, who is director for operations at U.S. Pacific Command. Swift, a graduate of San Diego State, was recommended for a third star. He entered the Navy in 1979 through the Aviation Reserve Officer Candidate program and commanded Carrier Air Wing 14 and Carrier Strike Group 9.

So now Fire scout is Okay....

Fire Scout reliability improves on deployment

By Christopher P. Cavas - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Jul 22, 2011 5:41:52 EDT

More than a thousand hours of flight time carried out this year by deployed Fire Scout unmanned helicopters is evidence that the system is working through its developmental problems and showing itself able to deliver a reliable reconnaissance and surveillance capability, the program’s U.S. Navy managers said.

“Since May 21, we’ve got over 718 hours of flight time in Afghanistan,” said Capt. Patrick Smith, the Navy’s Fire Scout program manager at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md. “We have a monthly goal of 300 hours, and in June we hit 307. In July, we’re tracking toward 375 hours. Our reports back from our U.S. and allied customers have been very, very favorable. And this is why I would call all the work done in early 2011 a success. The proof is in the pudding with what we’re doing in Afghanistan.”

Two Fire Scout systems, including six aircraft and their control units, were sent to Afghanistan in April and May at the request of combatant commanders. Another system with two aircraft has been deployed to the Mediterranean Sea and Horn of Africa region aboard the frigate Halyburton.

“We’ve put over 435 hours of flight time from USS Halyburton,” Smith said, despite the June 21 loss of one of the aircraft over Libya. A replacement aircraft was soon sent out to the frigate, he added.

The reliability of the MQ-8B Fire Scout was recently called into question by an “early fielding report” prepared by the Pentagon’s Office of the Director, Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E). The report, which relied on data and observations completed this spring, claimed the control data link between airborne drones and their ground-based controllers was “fragile,” and that the Navy’s test program was not realistic or complete.

The Navy plans to buy up to 168 Fire Scouts from Northrop Grumman to operate from ships at sea. The program is still in its test phases, and is not expected to be declared operationally effective until 2013.

The DOT&E report chided the program for an inability to provide a “time-sensitive” asset, and claimed that half the missions flying from the Halyburton were unsuccessful.

“The deployment had two purposes,” Smith said. “Integration with the ship to support anti-piracy and maritime operations, and as a proof of concept with our special operations forces in supporting sea-based intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance operations.

“We’ve had some fantastic collection of data,” Smith said. “We’ve had very good reports from the customers.”

Smith did not dispute the DOT&E report’s findings that the early spring tests at Webster Field in southern Maryland were difficult.

“We were surging to meet the Afghan deployment,” he said. “We were able to prove out all the hot weather changes that were incorporated. All the payload issues. And train the crews.

“We were not able to execute a major scenario that would truly simulate what they would see in Afghanistan. We were able to do it in parts, but not altogether.”

Among the problems, he said, were range limitations, scheduling issues, and the availability of aircraft and people.

“We were also packing up the systems to ship them to Afghanistan,” said Cmdr. Manny Picon, the program’s military lead.

“We have a bit more hindsight now than was available then they wrote the report,” Smith said. “The big thing we’re tying to get out is we understand the issues. We’ve had issues with the data link as reported in the early fielding reports. We look at the flight hours as more of an indicator as to how we’ve been able to produce.”

A well-publicized event last year when a Fire Scout headed for Washington after its data link was lost was due to a software problem that’s been fixed, Smith said. Reliability has not been a significant factor on the deployed systems.

“With Halyburton and in Afghanistan, we’ve not seen similar behavior, losing the links, that we saw at Webster,” Smith said, nor have there been major problems in restoring lost links. “Yes, they’ve had dropped links, but it has not impacted missions. It’s been restored and missions have continued. I would classify them as minor interruptions, as you’d have with any radio system. Our datalink reliability is in the high 90 percentages.”

And the budget.

Senators call for $80B cut in military benefits

By Rick Maze - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 21, 2011 10:06:53 EDT

A bipartisan Senate deficit-reduction plan would force smaller cost-of-living adjustments for military retirees as early as 2012 and give the House and Senate armed services committees no choice about making other cuts in military entitlements.

The so-called Gang of Six proposal, named for the three Democrats and three Republicans who drafted it, calls for cuts of $80 billion over 10 years in military entitlements, leaving details to be worked out by the armed services committees. If any committee fails to make the ordered cut, across-the-board reductions would be made in all entitlements under the committee’s jurisdiction.

This would be just the first round of cuts under a plan designed to save almost $4.3 trillion over time. Tax reform and cuts in discretionary spending would be required to achieve the bulk of those cuts, with the defense budget on the hook for a large part of the savings and with a special review planned of federal health care spending.

The plan, prepared by three Democrats and three Republicans, is gaining support in the Senate but appears, so far, to have little support among House Republicans. Some House Republicans would have to vote for the plan in order for it to pass.

Entitlements under jurisdiction of the armed services committees include regular and disability retired pay, survivor benefits and Montgomery GI Bill benefits for the National Guard and Reserve. Tricare for Life health care for Medicare-eligible retirees is the only part of the military health care system considered an entitlement under budget rules.

The $80 billion in savings would be in addition to any money saved in a revision of how cost-of-living adjustments are calculated for military retirees. The Gang of Six plan calls for a change, effective with the Dec. 1, 2012, adjustment, to a new formula that is estimated to reduce any adjustment by one-quarter to one-half of a percentage point each year. The same 2012 change would apply to COLA for federal civilian workers but would not apply to Social Security until 2017, under the proposal.

How veterans’ disability and survivor benefits would be affected is unclear because these payments do not automatically adjust. Instead, Congress reserves the right to approve any annual increase in veterans’ compensation, although the amount usually equals the increase provided to Social Security recipients.

An $80 billion reduction in retirement costs does not mean that pay for current retirees and current service members would change, other than the COLA revision that would apply across the government.

Retirement savings could be claimed by making a change in benefits for future service members, something that achieves immediate savings because the Defense Department is required to set aside money each year to pay for the future retirement benefits of service members.

Marines and Coastys Invade... New Zealand

Corps, CG invited to visit New Zealand in 2012

By Nick Perry - The Associated Press
Posted : Friday Jul 22, 2011 7:53:57 EDT

WELLINGTON, New Zealand — Marines will visit New Zealand next year for the first time in at least 25 years, a sign of continuing thawing in the countries' military relations.

Prime Minister John Key made the announcement after visiting Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in Washington on Thursday.

The Marines' visit will mark the 70th anniversary of their arrival in New Zealand to offer military support during World War II in case of an attack in the South Pacific. Key has also invited the Coast Guard to send a ship.

Military relations between the countries soured 25 years ago when New Zealand banned nuclear weapons from the country, preventing U.S. warships from visiting. Relations have improved in recent years, and New Zealand special forces have been active in Afghanistan.

The nuclear weapons ban is popular among the general public in New Zealand but remains a sticking point for the U.S. in resuming a full military relationship.

Among the details yet to be worked out for next year's visit are the number of Marines, how many will be veterans and how many active service, and whether they will arrive by plane or ship.

Stephen Hoadley, an associate professor of political studies and a foreign policy specialist at the University of Auckland, said the visit will "resonate very favorably" with older New Zealanders, some of whom remember the Marines' arrival in 1942.

"It was a tremendous emotional event," said Hoadley, noting that New Zealanders felt an enormous sense of relief at the U.S. presence.

Even then there were tensions, however, and in 1943 a riot involving more than 1,000 troops broke out in Wellington between American and New Zealand servicemen.

[bd popeye]

Senators call for $80B cut in military benefits

I've not recieved any rase in my Navy retired pay since 2008..so what else is new?? Robbers!

[i.e.]

If F22's prob related to Engine suck in carbonmonoxide in the hangers and bleed air then takes into the oxygen system, then wouldn't other aircraft stationed at Alaska which presumablly use the same precedure be suspect to the same problems?

It is a really easily prob to fix really, crack the cockpit open a bit when you taxi out the hangar to let some fresh air in !!!.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The Army Lost What?

Assault, sniper rifles stolen from Irwin

The Associated Press
Posted : Saturday Jul 30, 2011 16:24:09 EDT

FORT IRWIN, Calif. — More than two dozen assault rifles have been stolen from this base, and investigators sought the public’s help as they looked to arrest suspects and recover the weapons, federal officials said Friday.

Twenty-six AK74 assault rifles and one Dragunov sniper rifle were stolen from a supply warehouse at Fort Irwin on July 15, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives says in a statement.

Some arrests have been made and one rifle has been recovered, but the agency is offering a reward of up to $10,000 for information leading to further arrests, the statement said.

“Community participation is necessary to improve the likelihood that ATF and our law enforcement partners will track down the firearms as well as the criminals who have sought to destabilize our community through illegal activity,” ATF Special Agent in Charge John A. Torres said in the statement.

ATF spokesman Special Agent Christian Hoffman could not say when reached by phone how many were arrested, whether they were military or civilian or what motive they may have had.

He referred those questions to military officials, who made the arrests. Phone and email messages left late Friday for a spokesman from the Army Criminal Investigation Command, which is investigating the theft along with ATF and the FBI, were not immediately returned.

Hoffman also could not say why word of the theft did not become public for two weeks, but said his agency decided to issue a news release because of the potential danger the weapons posed.

“We determined that there was a public safety issue with the guns getting out on the street,” he said.

before any one asks why they had AK74's and Dragonvs Ft. Irwin Is the National Training Center And Home of the 11th ACR the Black horses better known as the OPFOR. So they were probably there too train Soldiers in the use of non American Arms.

And the Cuts begin.

Defense facing cuts up to $850B over 10 years

The Associated Press
Posted : Monday Aug 1, 2011 15:52:41 EDT

WASHINGTON — The Defense Department is facing cuts of up to $850 billion over a decade under the compromise struck by President Barack Obama and congressional leaders.

The immediate cuts, however, were far less and included not just defense, but money for veterans, homeland security, intelligence and foreign aid. Spending on all those programs would drop from $687 billion this year to $683 billion next year.

Members of the congressional committees overseeing the military said the first round of cuts was doable, but they won’t be easy. Security money would face a $350 billion cut over 10 years. Of greater concern to lawmakers was the possibility that a special 12-member committee of House and Senate members would fail to come up with a deficit-cutting plan, triggering an additional $500 billion in cuts.

That's a Lot of Cash Expect a lot more headlines like this one here...

Army cancels MULE unmanned ground vehicle

By Kate Brannen - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Aug 1, 2011 9:19:43 EDT

The Army has decided to cancel the Multi-Mission Unmanned Ground Vehicle, one of the few systems still remaining from the Future Combat Systems program.

The 3.5-ton vehicle, which has been in development for years, is more commonly known by its FCS name, the Multi-Function Utility/Logistics and Equipment Vehicle (MULE).

Although a July 29 Acquisition Decision Memorandum formalized the decision, the Army determined it no longer needed the vehicle during a 2011 unmanned ground vehicle portfolio review.

“The Warfighter’s requirements in the area of dismounted Soldier equipment transport have shifted to a vehicle with an expanded air assault capability,” a July 29 letter to Congress says.

The original FCS MULE program had three different vehicle variants: transport, countermine and the Armed Robotic Vehicle.

In January 2010, the Army canceled the transport and countermine variants but said work would continue on the Armed Robotic Vehicle-Assault Light, being developed by Lockheed Martin.

At the time, the company said the Armed Robotic Vehicle consumed the bulk of MULE funding. Lockheed Martin first won the contract to develop the MULE program in 2003.

Now, the Army has concluded, “the system’s Counter-Improvised Explosive Device focus and weight limited the platform’s mobility.

The Army’s decision formally halts development of the Autonomous Navigation System (ANS) and Common Mobility Platform (CMP), the vehicle’s two major components.

The Army said it conducted a comparative assessment of existing autonomous navigation system technologies and determined that “ANS development progress did not warrant continued investment,” according to the congressional letter.

All work on the program must stop by Sept. 30.

The MULE was one of the few FCS programs still kicking.

Since April 2009, a series of decisions from former Defense Secretary Robert Gates and the Army have led to the cancellation of the bulk of the program.

First, Gates made the most dramatic cut by canceling the manned ground vehicle portion of the program, which effectively brought an end to the FCS program as a whole.

However, several technologies were allowed to continue, including a handful of unmanned vehicles.

In January 2010, the Army canceled the Class IV UAV and the transport and countermine variants of the MULE. Later, it canceled the Non-Line of Sight Launch System.

Earlier this year, the Army canceled the Class I UAV and halted work on the unmanned ground sensors.

A recent internal Army study revealed exactly how much the Army has been spending on canceled programs over the past decade.

“The FCS termination casts an enormous shadow over any debate about challenges in the Army acquisition system,” the report released in June said. But the Army’s problems predate FCS.

Every year since 1996, before FCS was off and running, the Army spent more than $1 billion annually on programs that were ultimately canceled.

Since 2004, including FCS, the Army spent $3.3 billion to $3.8 billion on programs that were eventually canceled. This equates to 35 to 42 percent per year of Army Development Test and Evaluation funding being lost on canceled programs.

there is also word of the Cancellation Of the NETT WARRIOR SYSTEM in favor of Smart phones.
And Worries are being Raised over the Abrams.
But on the Up swing we hope.

Lighter, newer, deadlier gear may be on the way

60mm mortar is on the horizon, but.50-cal, new tank ammo face hurdles
By Lance M. Bacon - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Jul 30, 2011 16:34:27 EDT

A lighter 60mm mortar is gun-up, new tank ammo is loaded but in a tactical pause, and the lightweight .50-caliber machine gun is clearing a considerable jam. Such is the status of three key weapon and munitions programs.
.50-cal seems worth wait

Low-rate initial production of 800 revolutionary XM806 lightweight .50-caliber machine guns will begin in February. A pierced primer had halted progress, said Lt. Col. Thomas Ryan, product manager of crew-served weapons for Program Executive Office Soldier. Delivery, which was expected by 2014, is now delayed 17 months.

While no one likes a delay, finding this fault early in the process has allowed the Army to build a more reliable and durable weapon, Ryan said. The service re-engineered the bolt, adjusted the fixed head space and conducted new tests. Officials have put 300,000 rounds downrange and the results have been strong.

The XM806 cuts the weight of the 128-pound M2 by half and reduces recoil by 60 percent. It also boasts an effective range of 2,000 meters, 170 better than the M2. The machine gun, which has a manual safety, allows for quick barrel changes that do not require adjustments for head space and timing.

Relief also is on the way for the A-gunner tapped to carry the tripod. The XM205 weighs 13 pounds less than the 44-pound M3 now being carried. The XM205 collapses to less than 50 percent of deployed height.
Lighter, more durable mortar

Trigger pullers aren’t the only ones getting some relief. The 1st Special Forces Group at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash., has become the first unit to receive the latest M224A1 60mm Lightweight Company Mortar System. The new mortar knocks 20 percent off its predecessor’s 46-pound weight while maintaining its max range, which is better than two miles. This was made possible by cutting out a few components and using a nickel-based super alloy called “Inconel” to make cannon tubes. The material is not only lighter, but is also more durable and in need of less maintenance, officials said.

The Army will replace all 1,550 of its 60mm mortars with this new system by 2014, officials said.
More lethal tank ammo

The future isn’t as clear for tankers. On one hand, the Army has awarded ATK a $77 million, three-year contract to develop and qualify the M829E4 120mm Advanced Kinetic Energy tactical tank round. This fifth-generation round will provide far greater heavy armor defeat capabilities against advanced, explosive reactive armor at extended ranges. This will increase first-shot lethality without requiring any additional effort from the crew.

“This round provides added kill capability without added responsibility,” said Craig Aakhus, ATK’s engineering director for tank ammo.

But its greatest threat may not be on the battlefield. Congress in the 2011 National Defense Authorization Act ordered a cost-benefit analysis of future M1 Abrams munitions “to determine the proper investment to be made in tank munitions, including beyond-line-of-sight technology.” The analysis will address predicted operational performance of each munition in close-, mid- and long-range uses, and beyond line of sight, and must include the Advanced Kinetic Energy round, as well as the Mid-Range Munition and Advanced Multipurpose Program.

The analysis was due by April 15, but the Army was allowed to push that back. Service officials did not respond when asked when the new report would be presented.

Jeff Janey, ATK’s director for strategy and business development, was confident that the round’s “leap ahead in capability” will more than cover its “incremental cost increase.” ATK since 1980 has developed 10 of the 12 tank rounds and delivered more than 4 million tactical and training rounds to the Army, Marines and allied militaries.

ATK demonstrated in Phase I of testing that the Advanced Kinetic Energy round can meet all threshold requirements. Reliability will be put to the test over the next 31 months, with a critical design review coming about 20 months in. A low-rate initial production of 800 rounds will follow Phase II, with live-fire tests at Yuma Proving Ground, Ariz. If all goes according to plan, production of about 4,200 rounds will begin in the summer of 2014.
Do tanks fit future plans?

Still, the armor force of the future remains in a confusing quagmire. On one hand, there is much debate as to where — and in what quantity — tanks fit into future operations. Military and congressional leaders alike have increasingly pushed for an expeditionary Army centered on low-intensity, counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations, with fewer heavy forces sitting in a peripheral stand-by.

The Combat Vehicle Portfolio review stands as the primary factor for finding the right force. The Army this summer asked Congress to divert $124.5 million slated for a materiel development decision for the Abrams tank until the review is completed, which is expected at any time.

The Army also looks to save money by shutting down tank production lines for the first time since 1941. Chief of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey, at a May 18 Senate subcommittee hearing on defense appropriations, said though shutting down the plant and losing that “expert force” has undeniable costs, budget considerations required it, particularly since the Abrams inventory “is among the most modern of any of our equipment,” with an average age of just over two years old, and keeping the plant open with minimum production was not fiscally responsible.

The House Appropriations defense subcommittee didn’t agree; it added $272 million to the Army’s budget request and ordered the service to buy more tanks. In addition, 120 lawmakers in May signed a bipartisan letter arguing the Army would save more money keeping the production line open rather than closing it and paying the associated costs. It will cost General Dynamics $380 million to shut down the plant and mothball the equipment, and an additional $1.3 billion to restart production, said Mike Cannon, General Dynamics’ senior vice president for ground combat systems.

At the proposed end of production in 2013, the Army’s tank fleet will include 1,547 M1A2 System Enhance Package tanks, mostly fielded to active units, and 791 M1A1 tanks, all fielded to National Guard units.

The Army in July also asked for an extra $31 million for the Abrams Upgrade Program. The tanks are experiencing greater-than-expected washout rates in regard to gun tubes, engines, transmissions, final drives, high hard armor plates in the sponson area, ammunition doors and rails.

Pilots, maintainers trying out for JSF spots

By Brian Everstine - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jul 31, 2011 11:41:41 EDT

The roster of pilots and maintainers who will be the first to train on the F-35 Lightning II is starting to take shape.

Officials at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., plan to begin small group tryouts, consisting of six to 12 students, for F-35 maintainers in the coming weeks. Small group tryouts for pilots are underway, with flight training planned to begin in January.

The first two Air Force variants of the next-generation fighter were delivered July 14 and 20, and a full mission simulator and classrooms are ready to go. Lockheed Martin will deliver a weapons loader trainer this month, said Joanne Puglisi, Lockheed’s director of F-35 training, in a conference call with reporters.

Operational utility evaluation — testing to make sure the F-35 is safe to fly — is scheduled to begin in October and last about 12 weeks. Four pilots, two from the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., and two from the 58th Fighter Squadron at Eglin, will conduct the tests, said Col. Andrew Toth, the commander of the 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin.

The 33rd Fighter Wing, which includes the 58th, expects to train about 100 pilots and 2,200 maintenance students annually at Eglin.

Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., is planning to host 36 F-35s beginning in 2012 for use in the Weapons School pilot training program and another tactical program.

In addition to the two F-35s already at Eglin, the base is scheduled to receive three more Air Force variants this year, with a Marine short-takeoff, vertical-landing variant also headed to Eglin this year. Two additional F-35s are at Edwards.

A total of 2,443 F-35s are slated to be delivered to the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps during the next 30 years.

And Here is a new one.

Will your next uniform be made from plastic?

By Rick Maze - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jul 31, 2011 11:21:56 EDT

A Senate committee is pushing the Defense Department to consider using recycled military uniforms — not giving new recruits hand-me-downs but rather issuing uniforms made from recycled materials such as plastic bottles.

The idea is not new: Several companies produce fabric made of recycled materials. An Ohio firm, for example, announced in June that it now makes a uniform shirt for casino workers out of recovered materials from five plastic soda bottles.

The Senate Armed Services Committee, in its report on the 2012 defense authorization bill, asks the Defense Department to consider whether recycled materials could be an acceptable fabric for the military, and what types of garments would be feasible.

Cintas Corp., the business that makes the casino uniforms, says one of its products could be a big money-saver: It has created a machine-washable tuxedo, which reduces dry-cleaning costs.

A governmentwide policy set by a 2009 presidential executive order encourages conservation and recycling initiatives by, among other things, setting a goal that 95 percent of new government contracts for items other than weapons systems include products or services that are “environmentally preferable.”

This includes seeking nontoxic or less-toxic alternatives, not depleting the ozone layer, using water-saving techniques and containing recycled content.

In terms of clothing, the use of recycled materials includes using old clothes to make new pants and shirts, and developing bio-based techniques to combine recycled products with polyester to produce durable and comfortable clothing.

Military and other garment manufacturers are using plastic bottles and fabric scraps to make new clothing and other products. Hats, bags and luggage are products that can be made from a combination of recycled plastic and rayon.

The Senate committee is asking the Defense Department to think about what kind of items could be made with such products, and to report in time for the answers to be considered as part of the 2013 defense budget.

In particular, the committee wants defense officials to consider whether a unique military specification for the new material is necessary.

A DoD-wide standard might require working with the Environmental Protection Agency or the Agriculture Department to ensure the material could be designated as environmentally preferable.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

So Now I am going too Voice an Opinion. [Opinion:ON]
With the Congressional Butcher knives on the way Here is a program I think We could loose. Transformer (flying car)
I Expect too heard the F136 finally given it's death blow.
I Expect Hold offs on the Modular Handgun System ,
Individual Carbine - , Next-Generation Bomber and SSBN-X future follow-on submarine
Hard Fights for
Joint Light Tactical Vehicle
Marine Personnel Carrier -
GCV Infantry Fighting Vehicle
Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
Bell Boeing Quad TiltRotor
Joint Multi-role Helicopter
KC-X
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
T-X program

[kyanges]

New to me.

Boeing, BAE Systems to Develop Integrated Directed Energy Weapon for US Navy

BAE Systems to Develop Integrated Directed Energy Weapon for US Navy
Team has initial contract to build a laser weapon demonstrator unit
Agreement formalizes effort to develop directed energy system for enhanced ship defense

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M., July 25, 2011 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced that its Directed Energy Systems (DES) division has signed a teaming agreement with BAE Systems to develop the Mk 38 Mod 2 Tactical Laser System for defense of U.S. Navy ships.

The Navy awarded the BAE Systems team an initial contract in March to build a demonstrator unit of the system. Boeing is a subcontractor to BAE Systems under this contract.

"Boeing is committed to developing this directed energy system that will significantly enhance ship defense," said Michael Rinn, Boeing DES vice president. "Combining BAE's engineering expertise with the proven directed-energy proficiency of Boeing's DES division creates a team uniquely qualified to integrate directed-energy technology into the Navy's shipboard armaments."

The Mk 38 Mod 2 Tactical Laser System couples a solid-state high-energy laser weapon module with the operational Mk 38 Machine Gun System. The addition of the laser weapon module brings high-precision accuracy against surface and air targets such as small boats and unmanned aerial vehicles. The system also provides the ability to deliver different levels of laser energy, depending on the target and mission objectives.

Boeing and BAE Systems have been working together for the past two years to develop this capability. In 2010, Boeing DES conducted two experiments in the field to demonstrate the system's ability to track surface targets and maintain a laser aimpoint with high precision.

"The Mk 38 Mod 2 system is revolutionary because it combines kinetic and directed energy weapons capability," said Rinn. "Our approach is an affordable solution for the customer, because this system can be integrated seamlessly into existing shipboard command interfaces."

The Mk 38 Mod 2 Tactical Laser System project unites Albuquerque-based Boeing DES -- the industry leader in directed energy and acquisition, pointing and tracking systems -- with BAE Systems, a leading designer and supplier of major shipboard armaments to the U.S. Navy.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $32 billion business with 65,000 employees worldwide. Follow us on Twitter: @BoeingDefense.

[Scratch]

So Now I am going too Voice an Opinion. [Opinion:ON]
With the Congressional Butcher knives on the way Here is a program I think We could loose.

Well, there's indeed already speculation going on regarding the future navy big ticket items. Most importantly SSBN(X) and the carrier fleet.
There's talk about trying evolution on the Virginia SSN to make it an SSBN.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener..._p0-348037.xml

Pentagon May Change Carrier, SSBN(X) Plans
Jul 14, 2011 - By Michael Fabey mike_fabey@aviationweek.com WASHINGTON

The U.S. Defense Department is considering delaying, cutting back or canceling planned future aircraft carriers and ballistic missile submarines to meet its budget-reduction mandates, says U.S. Marine Corps Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. [...]

Further, he acknowledges, the Pentagon is mulling whether to cancel the proposed SSBN(X) ballistic missile submarine replacement and instead use a more “evolutionary” approach by elongating SSN Virginia-class attack subs. ...

Given the constraints it sounds sensible and should be given a try, especially since the Virginia programm itself is a really good one. Delivering great value on time and budget, not really that common for the USN these days. It remains to be seen if it can be more that a bridge, however.
The article is also talking about CVNs. Going back to ten might really be stretching it. And building full up LHA-6 class CVs with EMALS and stuff is probably not going to deliver more value for money then building Ford's, exept for having more ships.
I don't think they'll go after the tankers really, because they are essential for USAF global reach and the need to be replaced. Similar with the trainers, T-38s can't go much longer. But maybe they're not going for T-50s any more, but maybe M-346 class instead.
I could imagine the F-35 procurement to be stretched and allow foreign customers to get some earlier.
The exotic stuff like quad tilt & stuff will have to wait, indeed.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I highly Doubt Going too a Subsonic Trainer for the Air force, After all the T38 is super sonic so stepping back seems a foolish choice.
I mostly left out the navy as I doubt much can be done too change things there. they already killed the Zimwalts, Virgina is going fine, DDG 51 flight 3 is running up the bill but there is no helping that. LCS Freedom LCS independence Is going weird with both classes being bought but they are priced at the same so I see nothing happening there other then dropping some of the projected number. San Antonio and LHA 6 are so far not causing problems and the Ford is needed. The SSBN x is the only one that seems controversial I favor a smaller SSBN because given the Salt treaty's We would likely have less need of big boomers I would really love it though if we Made the missile tubes capable of quick conversion too other jobs like Sub launched cruise missiles or equipment lockouts, That way if we wanted too go Nuke free we would still have Jobs for the newer ships by changing too SSGN's.
I have hope for the Armys M1A3 and GCV I really hope the GCV is used for a new family akin too the FCS in terms of variants. Same for MCP. The JLTV needs gets done soon we need out of the Hummers.
Quad and JMR are programs that still have hope as they are projected for the 2018 end of builds. I am really hoping for it As the Us rotary wings are all clocking over 20 years.
I am also hoping for the Individual Carbine and modular handgun system with some form of new SAW but not the LSAT light machine gun as the new rounds would cock up the price I do have hopes though for polymer Cased ammo
Body armor is always on the needed list.
[Opinion off]

[Scratch]

With the PMP engine mod the T-38C isn't really supersonic anymore, but has become more transsonic. And the M-346 is transsonic as well. And, in pilot training, the supersonic flight is just a very minor thing, there's nothing really to it, except for bragging around the stuffed animal you had with you went supersonic.
This aircraft would also be really cheap to operate.
Or if they go for something more epensive, like T-50, the option is to move other stuff down and do an extended IFF. Students might learn IFR and more advanced A-A & A-G stuff before going to their MWS.

And then I guess rebuilding Army & Marine Corps for the post Iraq/A-stan period will be challanging, but once it's all together, they'll indeed need the new vehicles.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

New JCS chief

Senate approves Dempsey to lead Joint Chiefs

New JCS vice chair, Army chief of staff, and Chief of Naval Operations also approved
By Rick Maze - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Aug 2, 2011 19:52:10 EDT

The Senate cleared the decks of thousands of pending military nominations on Tuesday, including confirming Army Gen. Martin Dempsey to become the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Raymond Odierno to become Army chief of staff and Navy Adm. Jonathan Greenert to be the Chief of Naval Operations.

The list of confirmations approved Aug. 2 includes Navy Adm. James Winnefeld Jr. becoming the JCS vice chairman; Air Force Gen. William Fraser III to be the U.S. Transportation Command commander; and Army Lt. Gen. Charles Jacoby to receive a fourth star and becoming head of the U.S. Northern Command and the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

The approvals came as the Senate was poised to leave until after Labor Day.

In addition to filling the senior posts, the Senate also confirmed 2,698 routine promotions for Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps officers and approved the nominations for two assistant defense secretaries. Madelyn Creedon was confirmed to be assistant defense secretary for global strategic affairs posts and Alan Estevez was confirmed to be assistant defense secretary for logistics and materiel readiness.

The nominations were approved by voice vote and with no discussion, and put in place one of the single-largest changes in decades in military leadership that began with Leon Panetta replacing Robert Gates as defense secretary on July 1.

Dempsey, who will succeed Navy Adm. Mike Mullen as the military’s top uniformed officer, has been the Army chief of staff only since April, but was picked for the post when President Obama decided to pass over Marine Gen. James “Hoss” Cartwright, the current JCS vice chairman, as Mullen’s replacement.

[Opinion ON]
That Depends on more how the USAF and congress Feel then any thing we can come up with, I think they would want Supersonic foe other reasons including that snce the f35 and F22 both lack two seat trainers they would want too get as much flight both above and below the sonic barrier also they could Slot T50's in to Aggressors In too fill the gap left after the F16 is put too pasture.
One phrase sends a chill down my spine right now more then any other "Expeditionary Army" FCS Were suppose too be " Expeditionary Army" trouble is They are too light too protect too heavy too move and too expensive too buy.
FCS was intended for Just the kind of specs on the push and well we all know how that ended. we need a flexible force that can change too meet the enemy not a lightweight slaughter.
The Marines are another matter because Most of there " Expeditionary" Is in a self contained deployment platform supplied but the US navy.
[Opinion OFF]

deal could cut defense spending by $900 billion

By Tom Vanden Brook - USA Today
Posted : Tuesday Aug 2, 2011 7:53:29 EDT

WASHINGTON — Cuts to defense spending in the debt reduction bill could total nearly $1 trillion over 10 years — more than double what President Obama had proposed earlier this year — and sap American military might worldwide, say analysts and members of Congress.
Related reading

Debt deal in line with DoD budget expectations (Aug. 1)

Budget cutters may have to consider slashing costly defense systems like the U.S. military’s replacement fighter jet or increase health-care premiums for working-age military retirees to comply with a debt reduction deal that may cut as much as $900 billion from the U.S. military over 10 years.

“They could do this responsibly,” said Todd Harrison, a budget expert at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. “The reality is that it will be very difficult.”

Thomas Donnelly, a military analyst at the American Enterprise Institute, said the Pentagon cuts won’t require “long knives so much as chain saws.”

Harrison estimates the reductions in defense spending could rise to $900 billion over 10 years.

The proposed cuts would force critical weapons systems to be trimmed or eliminated along with reductions in military personnel and training while at war, Donnelly said.

“The question will be what do we do when we get a shock to our system like 9/11?” Donnelly said. “The fact is we haven’t turned down wars, not even President Obama.”

Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., has argued that there is “excessive” military spending that can be eliminated in part by scaling back U.S. commitments overseas. But even Obama’s choice for chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, told the Senate last week that $800 billion in defense cuts “would be extraordinarily difficult and very high risk,” prompting some on Capitol Hill to withhold support for the debt-ceiling deal.

Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., chairman of a House Armed Services Committee on military readiness, voted against the bill and described the cuts to the military services as “staggering.” He said the deal would require the Army and Marine Corps to shed needed troops “in a world that’s not getting any safer.”

Among the areas likely to attract budget cutters attention:

• Retirees pay $230 a person or $460 a family each year, along with small co-payments for various types of care. The fees have not gone up since 1995.

• The Joint Strike Fighter, or F-35, is to replace an aging fleet of Harrier jets and protect troops in infantry assaults. The cost: $385 billion for 2,457 jets.

• The size of the ground forces. Army has about 550,000 soldiers, up about 40,000 since 2006. There are about 200,000 Marines, up from 175,000. The Pentagon already has planned to cut 27,000 soldiers and 20,000 Marines by 2015 to save about $6 billion in 2015 and 2016.

If the cuts are targeted, Harrison said, the Pentagon could be forced to make tough choices but still maintain a potent force.

“This will really forces (the military) to rethink its strategy,” Harrison said. “That’s not always a bad thing.”

Last week, in a Congressional hearing on military readiness, the No. 2 officers of the armed services said the services could absorb $400 billion in cuts that President Obama had proposed prior to the debt deal cuts. Anything more would be a problem.

“If they would exceed $400 billion, we would start to have to make some fundamental changes in the capability of the Marine Corps,” said Gen. Joseph Dunford, assistant commandant.

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Deadly crash highlights role of special forces

By Deb Riechmann and Lolita C. Baldor - The Associated Press
Posted : Monday Aug 8, 2011 17:52:42 EDT

KABUL, Afghanistan — The loss of dozens of elite American troops to a Taliban rocket-propelled grenade is a window on the war to come — focused increasingly on the type of special operations the troops were pursuing when their helicopter crashed.

The U.S. military released new details Monday about the crash in the Tangi Valley, a dangerous area of Wardak province on the doorstep of the Afghan capital. The 30 U.S. troops, seven Afghan commandos and an Afghan interpreter who died were taking part in one of thousands of nighttime operations being conducted annually across the nation.

The sheer number of these missions is evidence that progress in the nearly decade-long war depends more on efforts to kill or capture insurgents than the overarching strategy of building support for the Afghan government at grassroots levels. And these missions will take on relatively more importance as troop levels decline.
Related stories

Some troops killed in helo crash identified

Remains of Chinook crash victims return Tuesday (Aug. 8)

Pentagon: Crash tragic, but not a trend (Aug. 8)

Probe continues at Chinook crash site (Aug. 8)

Obama, commanders discuss Chinook crash (Aug. 8)

NATO: Troops in crash were after Taliban leader (Aug. 7)

NATO, Afghan forces fight insurgents near crash (Aug. 7)

NSW source: Crash ‘worst day in our history’ (Aug. 6)

Afghanistan helo crash kills 30 U.S. troops (Aug. 6)

Obama, Panetta, Mullen mourn helo-crash deaths (Aug. 6)

Saturday’s crash of the CH-47 Chinook helicopter was deadliest single loss for U.S. forces in the war and raised anew questions in the United States about why U.S. troops are still fighting the unpopular conflict.

U.S. leaders vowed on Monday not to let the loss rewrite the war strategy.

“We will press on and we will succeed,” President Barack Obama said at the White House.

Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta said, “As heavy a loss as this was, it would even be more tragic if we allowed it to derail this country from our efforts to defeat al-Qaida and deny them a safe haven in Afghanistan.”

In Kabul, German Brig. Gen. Carsten Jacobson, a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition, said, “The incident, as tragic as it was in its magnitude, will have no influence on the conduct of operations.”

Jacobson said troops continued Monday to recover every last piece of the helicopter and that no one was being allowed in or out of the heavily secured crash site during the investigation. A ceremony was held at Bagram Air Field, a massive military installation north of Kabul, to pay respect to fallen service members being sent back to the United States.

Marine Gen. John Allen, the new top commander of U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan, released a statement early Tuesday in honor of the fallen American and Afghan troops. “In life they were comrades in arms and in death they are bound forever in this vital cause,” he said. “We cherish this selfless sacrifice.”

Pentagon officials said two C-17 aircraft carrying the remains of U.S. and Afghan troops killed in the crash left Afghanistan Monday night en route to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. They said that there will be no public media coverage at the Dover base during the ceremony that typically takes place when the bodies of fallen troops arrive because the badly damaged remains are mingled and still being identified.

Many of the Americans who died were members of the Navy’s SEAL Team 6, the unit that conducted the raid that killed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden at his hideout in Pakistan. But none of the SEALs killed in the crash took part in the bin Laden mission. The official name of the SEAL team is the Naval Special Warfare Development Group.

The troops, who were packed into the twin-rotor chopper, crashed while on a mission that targeted a Taliban leader in the mountainous and heavily forested Sayd Abad district of Wardak, the coalition said. The helicopter was transporting them to the scene of an ongoing fight between coalition forces and insurgents.

Ali Ahmad Khashai, deputy governor of Wardak province, said Taliban insurgents frequently move through the Tangi Valley.

“This area concerns us because many attacks in Wardak are organized and planned in Tangi,” he said. “The enemy is active and the (military) operations have not been effective, unfortunately, because it is between three provinces. Maybe there are mountains and forests between these provinces that no one is taking responsibility for.”

The Taliban claimed they downed the helicopter with a rocket. U.S. military officials said the helicopter was hit as it was trying to land. Although the investigation has not yet been completeted, the coalition said in a statement that the “helicopter was reportedly fired on by an insurgent rocket-propelled grenade.”

Coalition troops on the ground searching for the Taliban leader saw several insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 assault rifles moving through the area, the coalition said. U.S. officials said the ground force was made up of U.S. Army Rangers, who regularly work with the SEALs. During the gunbattle, the ground force called for assistance.

“Those additional personnel were inbound to the scene when the CH-47 carrying them crashed, killing all on board,” the coalition said.

A U.S. official said the force was acting as what is called an “Immediate Reaction Force,” flying in to provide extra firepower to subdue a target, rather than a Quick Reaction Force, which comes in to stage a rescue. But multiple officials say hard questions are being asked about whether the target merited risking so many elite troops.

More U.S. special operations troops are in Afghanistan — about 10,000 — than in any other theater of war. The forces, often joined by Afghan troops, are among the most effective weapons in the coalition’s arsenal, conducting surveillance, infiltration and night raids on the compounds of suspected insurgents.

From April to July of this year, 2,832 special operations raids captured 2,941 insurgents and killed 834 militants — twice as many as over the same period last year, according to statistics provided by the coalition.

Special operations troops are expected to have a significant role as American forces begin drawing down as part of President Barack Obama’s plan to bring 10,000 U.S. troops home by year’s end and as many as 23,000 more by September 2012. Afghan President Hamid Karzai wants Afghan security forces to be in the lead across the nation by the end of 2014 when foreign combat forces will have returned home or moved into supportive roles.

Special operations raids are likely to be the lasting U.S. footprint in Afghanistan, according to recent comments by Douglas Lute, the White House’s senior adviser on the war. He predicted the current blend will shift from mostly classic counterinsurgency operations — in which conventional forces clear, hold and build, and special operations forces conduct raids — to Afghan forces clearing and holding. But even then, U.S. special operations forces will likely remain, both hunting militants in night raids and working with the local forces.

Saturday’s mission was flown by a conventional air crew, instead of the overstretched pilots of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, two U.S. officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing.

There are so many special operations missions every night— a dozen or so, adding up to roughly 300 a month — that they often are assigned to non-special-operations pilots and aircraft, according to one officer in the war zone and a second U.S. official familiar with the special operations missions. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to comment publicly.

Conventional helicopter pilot crews sometimes support up to two missions in the same night, the officer in the war zone said.

The 160th special operations regiment flies more technically advanced Chinook helicopters and spends more time on the ground in Afghanistan than many conventional military pilot crews do. But a U.S. official familiar with their operations said that while those advantages help in cases of bad weather or tricky terrain, there is little that any crew can do to move a slow-moving Chinook out of harm’s way when under fire.

Anthony Cordesman, a national security analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said nothing done to a helicopter can prevent it from being vulnerable if it hovers, lands or takes off in any area where militants are present.

“We should not overreact to worst-case incidents or exaggerate their tactical and strategic importance,” Cordesman said.

———

Baldor reported from Washington. Associated Press Intelligence Writer Kimberly Dozier contributed to this story from Washington, Patrick Quinn and Rahim Faiez from Kabul.

A sad event my condolences and thanks too there family's for these brave people who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

[zoom]

Pentagon officials said two C-17 aircraft carrying the remains of U.S. and Afghan troops killed in the crash left Afghanistan Monday night en route to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware.

Do you know if the C-17 recently spotted in Chengdu civilian airport is one of these as rumours suggest ?

My heart goes out to all those affected by this tragedy.