UK Military News Thread

[delft]

I too don't think it is possible to get much more than the price of steel from selling these ships. They wouldn't fit well in the force planning of any other country, even if that country was interested in getting flattops faster than they could build them themselves. But you can't be confident that these ships will not be interfered with by the Treasury in future years. The history of the project can only be described as horrifying.

[asif iqbal]

i seriously hope UK scraps the F35 and goes for a naval Typhoon, it will bring much benifits to BAE and the local industry

UK can do much better than this, we can make better than what we get from the Americans but our problem isnt the technology its the politics!!!!

[Obi Wan Russell]

i seriously hope UK scraps the F35 and goes for a naval Typhoon, it will bring much benifits to BAE and the local industry

UK can do much better than this, we can make better than what we get from the Americans but our problem isnt the technology its the politics!!!!

Whilst I agree the UK could do a much better job of providing a Naval Strike Fighter, I'm afraid 'SeaPhoon' isn't it. The time to incorporate a carrier requirement into Typhoon was back in the late 80s, it's way too late now. You'd have to design a whole new 'Typhoon shaped' airframe to withstand the riguers of deck operations, adapting the existing airframe and undercarriage is simply unrealistic. You could land it on the deck of a carrier, but it would only leave the deck in a bucket or over the side!

My own personal wish would be to have seen the BAe Replica project proceeded with to a fully operational aircraft, using 'Off the Shelf' engines and avionics to save a small fortune in development costs (this would be the best way for Typhoon to contribute to naval opertaions, donating it's radar/engines/FCS/weapons systems to the new aircraft), so essentially the development of the New NSF (Buccaneer II?) would mainly be confined to perfecting a carrier capably stealthy airframe, and integrating existing components from Typhoon. If we'd started ten years ago the prototypes would be in the air now...

[Dizasta1]

They (UK Govt) has been committing serious blunders in the military contracts and acquisitions. First with the decision to build two carriers, when they couldn't afford to. Then trying to cancel one of the two aircraft carriers and taking a 180 degree turn in their decision by aborting to the cancellation of the aircraft carrier, simply because it would cost more to cancel then to build one! Go figure that one out!

Finally, the UK Govt has out-done itself by deciding to moth-ball one of two constructed aircraft carriers, leaving the Royal Navy with just one to field in active duty.

As everyone knows, acquisitions are based on true active duty numbers, which means the procurement process always includes spares and extra units to be fielded, when active duty units go for repairs, upgrades or maintenance. So when the British aircraft carrier is going to be at port for maintenance, repairs and upgrades, the Royal Navy wouldn't have any carriers at sea, in it's place!!

In so far as the F-35 deal is concerned, the UK Govt has totally lost it's marbles. Britain could easily have had a good carrier-fighter jet, in the shape of the French Rafale. Or better yet, MoD could have kept the Harrier force on active duty, while they decided on carrierborne fighter. Now, it would be at least a decade before the Royal Navy ever operates another aircraft carrier!

As the english say .... "that's brilliant!" ..... unfortunately, brilliantly wrong decisions by the UK Govt!!

[Obi Wan Russell]

Ok, Myth-busting time again!

The UK can easily afford both carriers even in these straightened times; the costs have been poorly explained to and understood by the general public and the press in particular. The cost of the CVF programme isn't just about two ships; it also includes the cost or restructuring the ENTIRE UK warshipbuilding industry and the cost of reconstructing Rosyth Dockyard to provide suitable construction facilities for the carriers, as they did not exist anywhere else in the UK... oh that's right, better facilities already existed in Belfast at Harland and Wolfe's yard (including a larger drydock and TWO Goliath cranes, each bigger than the new one at Rosyth). So there's one good example of Political interference driving up the costs unnecessarilly. Remember, no one in Belfast votes Tory or Labour, but in Scotland...

If you want to talk eye watering wastes of defence spending, CVF is so far down the list I'm surprised anyone mentions it. Take Typhoon... £20 BILLION+ for 232 aircraft, only we are only going to keep 107 or so, but we still have to pay for all the others. All that for a plane designed to defend the UK from marauding Soviet Air Force long range bombers... yeah, I remember them from when I was a teenager. The Army has an ongoing project/money pit called FRES (Future Rapid Effects System... no me either). Basically replacement transport for the troops, so APCs and the like. None of the vehicles planned would have any resistance to IEDs or mines, but the 'interim' vehicles aquired for Iraq and Afganistan are, so the requirement has been filled at much lower cost and with more suitable vehicles. FRES is still 'on the cards', even though it is hard to justify anymore. The cost? £18 BILLION. That's the price of at least 8 CVFs (not including Rosyth or the UK shipbuilding industry of course)

And we just gave something like £10 Billion to Greece which we'll never see again (I do recall an old saying about not throwing good money after bad...). I could go on, but suffice to say the CVF project at £6 Billion give or take is 'Loose change' by government standards.

Our problem is our politicians are far below the required standard, whatever their political colour, and most should not be allowed out without parental supervision! They haven't a clue when it comes to Defence and most just regard it as a cash cow to be squeezed whenever their own pet projects need a boost in funding.

[Dizasta1]

And we just gave something like £10 Billion to Greece which we'll never see again (I do recall an old saying about not throwing good money after bad...). I could go on, but suffice to say the CVF project at £6 Billion give or take is 'Loose change' by government standards.

Last I heard, the British Govt had made a definitive decision on the Aircraft Carrier Program, which entailed moth-balling one carrier and having just one active duty carrier. Also, that it would take a decade for this carrier to be fielded. Finally, that Britain and France have reached an agreement to share the French Aircraft Carrier, until Britain receives it's Queen Elizabeth Class Carrier, a decade from now.

Any thoughts, as to whether these are correct facts?

[Obi Wan Russell]

Last I heard, the British Govt had made a definitive decision on the Aircraft Carrier Program, which entailed moth-balling one carrier and having just one active duty carrier. Also, that it would take a decade for this carrier to be fielded. Finally, that Britain and France have reached an agreement to share the French Aircraft Carrier, until Britain receives it's Queen Elizabeth Class Carrier, a decade from now.

Any thoughts, as to whether these are correct facts?

They are correct until they are replaced by new facts, that's the way governments operate. In 1981 the Nott Defence review decreed HMS Invincible would be decommissioned in december 82 and sold to Australia. That was a fact also, set in stone, right up until it wasn't anymore.

The current plan (and if you don't like it, don't worry another will be along shortly!) is for HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08) to complete for 'first of class' trials in 2016, which will occupy her for at least two years. As things stand she will not have 'cats and traps' or a 'ski jump', effectively she will be a large LPH. On completion of her trials she will be placed in extended readiness and her crew, now fully trained will transfer to HMS Prince of Wales (R09), which will be fitted with two EMALS catapults and three AAG arrestor wires and be capable of operating CATOBAR aircraft. She will complete in 2018 and commission a year later, in time for the first sqn of F-35C to embark. Numbers of aircraft will increase gradually thereafter. It is likley HMS Queen Elizabeth will be refitted to full 'cat and trap' standard sometime between 2020 and 2023 and then the two carrier will alternate in the 'on call/ refit-reserve' role allowing one carrier to be available for deployment at all times.

[asif iqbal]

Whilst I agree the UK could do a much better job of providing a Naval Strike Fighter, I'm afraid 'SeaPhoon' isn't it. The time to incorporate a carrier requirement into Typhoon was back in the late 80s, it's way too late now. You'd have to design a whole new 'Typhoon shaped' airframe to withstand the riguers of deck operations, adapting the existing airframe and undercarriage is simply unrealistic. You could land it on the deck of a carrier, but it would only leave the deck in a bucket or over the side!

My own personal wish would be to have seen the BAe Replica project proceeded with to a fully operational aircraft, using 'Off the Shelf' engines and avionics to save a small fortune in development costs (this would be the best way for Typhoon to contribute to naval opertaions, donating it's radar/engines/FCS/weapons systems to the new aircraft), so essentially the development of the New NSF (Buccaneer II?) would mainly be confined to perfecting a carrier capably stealthy airframe, and integrating existing components from Typhoon. If we'd started ten years ago the prototypes would be in the air now...

F35 looks like it going to be a long time coming, i am talking atleast 8 years, if the goverment is serious and works effectively and efficiently there is no reason why we cant get a naval varient in the pipeline by 2020

a naval vaarient for the carriers will serve for many decades to come, even if it is a feew years late its no isssue, it will benifit us in the long term

i agree if naval Typhoon was started years BAE probably wouldnt have failed againat Rafale in the recent deal, and actually BAE already showed India that if required they can make naval version for them in a few years so i guess they can also do the same for home grown orders if they are required

[Obi Wan Russell]

As I said, SeaPhoon ain't gonna happen. The airframe isn't designed for carrier landings and 'beefing up the undercarriage just means you snap the wings off when you hit the deck. Take the F-18 Hornet for example, it was developed from a land based fighter (the Northrop F-17), but so much was changed to adapt it for naval use it gained a new type number. Basically they designed a whole new F-17 shaped aircraft for carrier use. Take a look at the landing gear on the F-17, and compare it with the Hornet. A world of difference, extending into the structure of the airframe itself. That's the level of work needed to make SeaPhoon work. A new Typhoon shaped airframe, designed and built from scratch!

I personally believe F-35C will be fine in the long run, teething problems notwithstanding, and if the politicians can be kept out of interfering with the planes and the carriers, both will be delivered on time and doing exactly 'what it says on the tin!'

[Jeff Head]

DSME wins Royal Navy contract for 4 MARS tankers vessels for Royal Fleet Auxiliary




Royal Air Force test pilot marks milestone in the F-35C Joint Combat Aircraft

Very nice. Glad to see this.

[Obi Wan Russell]

Whilst it's sad the new RFAs won't be built in UK yards, as long as they are built at all that's what matters. They are very overdue in terms of replacing existing ships, but better late than never. If going to South Korea gets them built without breaking the bank then I welcome it.

Some progress pics of the CVFs including some of the crew quarters and the inside of the construction shed at Pompey with LB02 and the forward Island almost complete! In other news the bulbous bow of HMS Prince of Wales is now en route to Rosyth:

[zoom]

Giant hull sections of Queen Elizabeth carrier joined at Clyde yard

595622990144734681.jpg

An operation has been carried out to join together two giant hull sections of the first of two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers being built on the Clyde.

More than 4,000 tonnes of steel make up the aft section of HMS Queen Elizabeth.

It took about an hour to move it 100m (328ft) to link up with the rest of the block at BAE Systems' Govan shipyard.

The new section will house the two main engine rooms, a medical area and living accommodation.

A fleet of remote controlled transporters were used to move the sections.

Stephen Carroll from BAE Systems led the operation.

He told BBC Scotland: "These are the largest war ships ever built for the Royal Navy at 65,000 tonnes.

"This section itself is going to be 11,500 tonnes when we load her out to go round to Rosyth from Govan.

"We have continually been proud to be on the programme, and delivering to plan."

Defence order

In August last year the largest section of the Queen Elizabeth arrived at Rosyth, after a being carried on a sea-going barge from the shipyard on the Clyde.

When assembly is completed, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be a 280m (919ft) long carrier capable of deploying up to 40 Lockheed Martin F-35 aircraft.

The ship will not be finished until 2016 at the earliest, and may not be ready for active service until 2020.

The carrier project is one of the largest defence orders placed in the UK, with a price tag of £5bn.

Work on the Queen Elizabeth's sister ship, HMS Prince of Wales, is also under way at Govan.

I'll try get the news video uploaded asap. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17656161 this is the video link for those who can access.

[kwaigonegin]

Ok, Myth-busting time again!

The UK can easily afford both carriers even in these straightened times; the costs have been poorly explained to and understood by the general public and the press in particular. The cost of the CVF programme isn't just about two ships; it also includes the cost or restructuring the ENTIRE UK warshipbuilding industry and the cost of reconstructing Rosyth Dockyard to provide suitable construction facilities for the carriers, as they did not exist anywhere else in the UK... oh that's right, better facilities already existed in Belfast at Harland and Wolfe's yard (including a larger drydock and TWO Goliath cranes, each bigger than the new one at Rosyth). So there's one good example of Political interference driving up the costs unnecessarilly. Remember, no one in Belfast votes Tory or Labour, but in Scotland...

If you want to talk eye watering wastes of defence spending, CVF is so far down the list I'm surprised anyone mentions it. Take Typhoon... £20 BILLION+ for 232 aircraft, only we are only going to keep 107 or so, but we still have to pay for all the others. All that for a plane designed to defend the UK from marauding Soviet Air Force long range bombers... yeah, I remember them from when I was a teenager. The Army has an ongoing project/money pit called FRES (Future Rapid Effects System... no me either). Basically replacement transport for the troops, so APCs and the like. None of the vehicles planned would have any resistance to IEDs or mines, but the 'interim' vehicles aquired for Iraq and Afganistan are, so the requirement has been filled at much lower cost and with more suitable vehicles. FRES is still 'on the cards', even though it is hard to justify anymore. The cost? £18 BILLION. That's the price of at least 8 CVFs (not including Rosyth or the UK shipbuilding industry of course)

And we just gave something like £10 Billion to Greece which we'll never see again (I do recall an old saying about not throwing good money after bad...). I could go on, but suffice to say the CVF project at £6 Billion give or take is 'Loose change' by government standards.

Our problem is our politicians are far below the required standard, whatever their political colour, and most should not be allowed out without parental supervision! They haven't a clue when it comes to Defence and most just regard it as a cash cow to be squeezed whenever their own pet projects need a boost in funding.

takes two hands to clap. Not just politicians but defence lobbyists are even worst! They are very powerful and influential. Remember these folk's main objective is to make money for the shareholders and increase profit and generate revenues.
If they could get away with selling a modern Army circa 1800 blunderbuss rifle for insane profit they would! $$$ first, logic, loyalty or national security a very distant 2nd.

[asif iqbal]

UK bought 5 Raytheon Sentinel aircraft for nearly £1 billion and they have only been in service for a few years and are said to be withdrawn from service after Afghan campagin is over, can u believe that!!! and its one hell of a aircraft!!!!!!!!! any Western country would be dying for such aircraft

UK politicans should be brought to international court of justice and held accountable for such crimes!!!

UK has wasted billions down blackholes, take Nimrod saga for example

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------

stunning aircraft

Raytheon Sentinel

[navyreco]

F35 in Fleet Air Arm markings