Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Originally Posted by Aero_Wing_32

I insist again... In the hands of the Chinese banker, USA is not in a good situation to support Taiwan anyhow. we will see in a decade. But now It is clear and a fact.

So, I wonder why MA still claims and falsely argues that americans will sell him a batch of F-16 C/D soon. It s clearly not the case after about 10 years! Sameissue with the Submarines needed.

And when taiwanese officials read such articles and see the facts ( US ‘clarifies’ statements on ‘one China’), they better have to find another partner for new military aircrafts! Clearly! TRA seems as suspended. IMHO.

This is the classic example of "inconvenient truth", but who could live with the consequence to tell the truth? It's political suicide for anyone who wants to take office.

And to look for "alternate source", what choice there is anyway? Only US, China, Russia and Europe have the full industrial base for their aviation industry, anybody else's have their core components rely on sources from those 4 places, and things that're military-grade have pretty strict export regulations concerning control on end users. That said, if you rule out US, whom can you choose as your "all-weather friend"? This is very important as it'd dictate the routes of a whole spectrum of future policies going to take, policies can't just for one term of office but several more.

Originally Posted by MwRYum

This is the classic example of "inconvenient truth", but who could live with the consequence to tell the truth? It's political suicide for anyone who wants to take office.

And to look for "alternate source", what choice there is anyway? Only US, China, Russia and Europe have the full industrial base for their aviation industry, anybody else's have their core components rely on sources from those 4 places, and things that're military-grade have pretty strict export regulations concerning control on end users. That said, if you rule out US, whom can you choose as your "all-weather friend"? This is very important as it'd dictate the routes of a whole spectrum of future policies going to take, policies can't just for one term of office but several more.

I did not mean ruling out the USA. But if americans are not willing to sell advanced F-16 now, nor upgrading the F-16 A/B, it s high time, after 10 years, to put an alternative choice of new fighters. But MA is only claiming the same in front of journalists, every year. Will this president be able to take one good decision to balance the military forces in the Taiwan strait? Will it pend 5 more years or even more? Just wondering...

Originally Posted by Aero_Wing_32

I did not mean ruling out the USA. But if americans are not willing to sell advanced F-16 now, nor upgrading the F-16 A/B, it s high time, after 10 years, to put an alternative choice of new fighters. But MA is only claiming the same in front of journalists, every year. Will this president be able to take one good decision to balance the military forces in the Taiwan strait? Will it pend 5 more years or even more? Just wondering...

Gauging by what China already undergoing and planning, compare with Taiwan's there's no balance anymore, unless Taiwan can come up with something "sci-fi"-ish that'd tip the balance around, or outsource military to the US.

And when everybody just looking at his/her term in office, who could come up with long-term plan that'll past the budget committee, or simply put, won't get them slaughtered at all fronts, political and media?

Also, what's more important is not just who you could choose, but who could honor the deal and deliver, on time and on budget? Ultimately when comes to engine you only have US, European and Russian manufacturers to choose from, avionics you can add Israeli as well (but as China already knew by now, US can intervene).

If nobody would do so (at least openly) you either "go black and underground" or make your own, core components parts included.

BTW, what choice does President Ma have anyway? If he admits the truth he'll be eaten whole and alive.

I also didn t mean balance in term of amount, of course, but of quality. See the lack of modern submarines, the aircrafts fleets. F-5 are useless and must be replaced by all means, F-16 A/B need overall upgrades. IDF and Mirage fleet (still good interceptors though), both need the same (avionics, radars and so on).

But if you think it s good to keep such a declining Army, up to you!

Originally Posted by MwRYum

Gauging by what China already undergoing and planning, compare with Taiwan's there's no balance anymore, unless Taiwan can come up with something "sci-fi"-ish that'd tip the balance around, or outsource military to the US.

And when everybody just looking at his/her term in office, who could come up with long-term plan that'll past the budget committee, or simply put, won't get them slaughtered at all fronts, political and media?

Also, what's more important is not just who you could choose, but who could honor the deal and deliver, on time and on budget? Ultimately when comes to engine you only have US, European and Russian manufacturers to choose from, avionics you can add Israeli as well (but as China already knew by now, US can intervene).

If nobody would do so (at least openly) you either "go black and underground" or make your own, core components parts included.

BTW, what choice does President Ma have anyway? If he admits the truth he'll be eaten whole and alive.

Originally Posted by Aero_Wing_32

But if you think it s good to keep such a declining Army, up to you!

I don't think, neither would I believe, that'd be an acceptable option for anyone, but if and when your hardware source is depend on just one supplier and he can actually pressure others not to cut into his profit margin, your only "plan B" is to seriously get into gear to make your own...Taiwan had set out to do so in the past but almost all the work done in the past have gone to naught over the years.

But given the politicians waste too much time on other issues, Taiwan lacks a strong movement to advocate such matter.

Hendrik, in this thread special rules were written.They are on the first page....among them.

Please note that this thread is reserved for discussion of Taiwanese military news, developments, etc. The following is a list of topics and comments that expressly forbidden:

- Discussion of the China-Taiwan relationship.
- Why does Taiwan need an army/Why does Taiwan need to buy weapons?
- Taiwan should unite with China/declare independence.
- China/Taiwan cannot win the war.

Do not try to dodge around this list - it is not exhaustive. Please remember to adhere to the general forum rules too.

We need to adhere to these rule. Thank you.

I'm going to review & revise the rules for this thread in the coming week.

Taiwan budgets $860 million for torpedoes
Published: May 26, 2011 at 6:55 AM

Read more: Taiwan budgets $860 million for torpedoes - UPI.com
TAIPEI, Taiwan, May 26 (UPI) -- Taiwan plans to spend $860 million to buy MK 54 and MK 48 torpedoes to replace aging U.S. and German weapons, the China Times newspaper said.

The purchase will be phased in over a decade, a report in the Chinese-language newspaper based in Taipei stated.

Around $300 million is earmarked to buy 600 MK 54 lightweight hybrid torpedoes to replace MK 46 anti-submarine torpedoes.

Another $160 million will be spent on 40 MK 48 heavyweight submarine-launched torpedoes designed to sink fast, deep-diving nuclear-powered submarines and high-performance surface ships.

The MK 48s will replace the navy's German-made SUT heavyweight torpedoes. The weapons came as a package when Taiwan bought two Hai Lung II submarines, a modified Zwaardvis-class vessel built for Taiwan by the Netherlands in the late 1980s.

Taiwanese defense officials also said $400 million will be spent on 100 MK 48 torpedoes for deployment on the navy's eight diesel-electric submarines it plans to purchase from the United States, although the submarine deal hasn't been finalized, the China Times said.

The MK 48 torpedo was designed in the end of the 1960s by Gould/Honeywell to match Soviet submarine technology and weapons. The 19-foot-long MK 46 with its 660-pound warhead has been operational since 1972 and is the standard heavyweight torpedo used by the U.S. military.

Now made by Hughes Aircraft, the MK 48 is launched from submarine torpedo tubes.

The MK 54 was co-developed by Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems and the U.S. Navy under the Navy's Lightweight Hybrid Torpedo program. In April 2003, Raytheon was awarded a sole-source contract for the production of the MK 54. Full rate production began in October 2004.

The MK 54 is versatile. It can be fired from surface ships using the MK 32 surface vessel torpedo tubes or the vertical launch anti-submarine rocket. It can also be launched from most systems and from most anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

Taiwan's plan follow on from a directive by Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou ordered the country's defense ministry in July to draft a draw up a shopping list of weapons that include MK 54 torpedoes, dozens of M1A2 tanks and amphibious landing vehicles.

If the MK 54 and MK 48 purchase goes through, Taiwan will phase out its older MK 46 torpedoes, the Taipei Daily newspaper reported in July. The MK 46 is aerial-launched from a surface ship and has been in production since 1967.

Read more: Taiwan budgets $860 million for torpedoes - UPI.com

Of course, that's assuming the ROCN will have serviceable submarines in the future.

It would be interesting to pit a M1A2 against a ZTZ-99A2, but that latter is probably too heavy to bring across the Straits.

I think M1A2s are not the wisest choice to spend money on... Z-10s or even Z-9s could make life very hard for the small number of MBTs the Taiwanese army could field. Better to buy more javelins or something.

Agreed. A weaker power should invest more in man-portable weapons like javelins, stingers, or even land-mines. If you can't rely on air power tanks are not much use. But, they would be valuable in repelling the early days of an invasion when PLAAF air superiority may not be guaranteed.

Originally Posted by Geographer

Agreed. A weaker power should invest more in man-portable weapons like javelins, stingers, or even land-mines. If you can't rely on air power tanks are not much use. But, they would be valuable in repelling the early days of an invasion when PLAAF air superiority may not be guaranteed.

It makes sense when procurement of heavy vehicles is nigh impossible, but there' another problem Taiwan need to face in this alternative - Javelin ain't like LAW or RPG, it's a sophisticated weapon system that needs trained crew to make it effective. While Taiwan will eventually move away from conscription system conscripts will still fill the bulk of its fighting forces for at least a decade more, assuming without further delay or policy changes, yet the short time span of conscription services and level of training intensity raise questions if such would actually works for Taiwan.

They'd better off buying more AT4 for the troops, while still buy enough Javelin launchers and missiles for their ATGM infantry teams - 542 rounds and 60 launchers (if rely on wiki's data) minus wear & tear and rounds expended during live firing drills ain't enough - in comparison, Singapore gets 1000 SPIKE ATGMs.

Ooh la la! That could pay for lots of toys!

France to Pay Taiwan Penalty Over Warship Deal


(Source: China News Agency; published June 10, 2011)



PARIS --- The French government and defense giant Thales said Thursday they will pay Taiwan a court-ordered fine of 630 million euros (US$913 million) after losing an appeal in a case involving bribes to clinch a Lafayette-class frigate deal with Taiwan in the 1990s.

The ruling brings to an end to a nearly two-decade dispute between France and Taiwan over commissions paid on the US$2.8 billion deal.

The French government said it had agreed with a request by Thales, the French contractor that sold six Lafayette frigates to Taiwan in 1991 when it was still known as Thomson-CSF, not to appeal the ruling by the Paris Court of Appeals.

Thales was concerned that continuing the long-running legal battle would not be good for the defense contractor's image and hurt future business prospects, according to wire service reports.

An international court of arbitration ruled in April 2010 that the French contractor had to pay Taiwan 630 million euros, including a fine of roughly 433 million euros plus interest costs, litigation fees and other related expenses, for paying commissions in violation of the contract.

Because the French government guaranteed the contract, known as "Bravo," it was to pay 72.5 percent of the penalty, or 460 million euros, with Thales to pay the other 170 million euros.

The French government said Thursday that an emergency amendment to its operating budget would have to be sent to the parliament in order to pay the fine and settle the issue.

Thales said in a statement that it had already set aside provisions for its 27.46 percent share of the fine and did not expect that the ruling would hurt the company's financial results.

The French government also promised on Thursday to help Taiwan reclaim illegal commissions paid to intermediaries, but it remains to be seen what kind of assistance it can provide.

French authorities previously classified related documents as national secrets, making it impossible for judicial authorities to track down the destinations of the illegal payments and forcing the presiding judge to close the case in 2008.

Millions of dollars of commissions are believed to be in Swiss bank accounts held by Thomson-CSF's agent at the time, Andrew Wang, and have become the priority target of Taiwan's drive to get back illicit commissions paid in the deal.

The funds in Wang's account have remained frozen, however, pending ongoing litigation.

Wang fled Taiwan following the death of Navy Captain Yin Ching-feng under suspicious circumstances in late 1993. Yin is believed to have been poised to blow the whistle on colleagues who had allegedly received kickbacks from the Lafayette deal. Wang has been wanted by Taiwanese authorities on a murder charge since September 2000. (ends)

And that's the way the cookie crumbles. It appears someone at Thales realized the only winners from dragging out the lawsuit for the last ten years and choosing to continue doing so would be the lawyers.

Apache contract signed. though I see nothing at the Dod website yet

Taiwan buys 30 AH-64 Apaches

Taiwan will receive 30 Boeing AH-64 Block III Apache helicopters under a new contract signed with the US government, a US Army official announced on 10 June.

The order marks the latest show of US military support to Taiwan despite deep objections by China, and confirms the first international customer for the AH-64 Block III.

Col Shane Openshaw, the army's AH-64 project manager, said Taiwan's first new-build helicopter will enter production in October, with the rest of the aircraft sprinkled through Boeing's production programme.

That s a good start! some promised deal are now signed, actually. That must be confirmed, as you mentioned, anyway.

Concerning the old Lafayette case, well let's hope it can imply a clear review of military ties with french and trustful exchanges. Among others, I still believe in an upgrade of the Mirage fleet / Mirage 2k9. Or purchase of some european military aircrafts. Let's see how things will go. That s also a big amount of money, that will be recovered in very short time. Sarkozy's administration, and officials (among of em the french MoD) claimed that this big fee will be paid quickly.

Originally Posted by cptplt

Apache contract signed. though I see nothing at the Dod website yet

Taiwan buys 30 AH-64 Apaches

Taiwan will receive 30 Boeing AH-64 Block III Apache helicopters under a new contract signed with the US government, a US Army official announced on 10 June.

The order marks the latest show of US military support to Taiwan despite deep objections by China, and confirms the first international customer for the AH-64 Block III.

Col Shane Openshaw, the army's AH-64 project manager, said Taiwan's first new-build helicopter will enter production in October, with the rest of the aircraft sprinkled through Boeing's production programme.