SinoDefence Forum

A.Man · 01-28-2010

Dear Mr T:

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No politics or inflammatory remarks!

bd popeye super moderator

Mr T · 01-29-2010

2 Osprey minehunters

MIDS terminals

Training Harpoon missiles

60 Black Hawks

114 PAC-3 missiles, launchers, etc

adeptitus · 01-29-2010

BBC News - US announces Taiwan arms sale plans

114 Patriot missiles ($2.81bn)
60 Black Hawk helicopters ($3.1bn)
Communication equipment ($340m)
2 Osprey mine-hunting ships ($105m)
12 Harpoon missiles ($37m)
Source: Defense Security Co-operation Agency

OK, I understand that it's realistic for Taiwan to spend the $ on R&D for every advanced weapon system. But back when ROCA wanted UH-1H helicopters, they negotiated with the US to have AIDC license build 118 of them.

The Japanese would do the same with Mitsubishi SH-60, and the Koreans had KAL-ASD license build black hawk helicopters. So why not Taiwan?

$105 million for 2 Osprey mine-hunting ships, but nobody mentions that they're used and ~15 years old. These are 900 ton mine hunting patrol boats, not big warships. If Taiwan is capable of build OH Perry class warships, why not 900 ton mine hunters?

$2.8 billion for Patriot missiles. Where's CIST's Sky Bow 3?

Mr T · 01-30-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by adeptitus

So why not Taiwan?

Dunno, send an e-mail to the State Department.

Quote:

$105 million for 2 Osprey mine-hunting ships, but nobody mentions that they're used and ~15 years old. These are 900 ton mine hunting patrol boats, not big warships. If Taiwan is capable of build OH Perry class warships, why not 900 ton mine hunters?

It's not about making hulls, it's what goes inside that counts. And they're being refurbished.

Quote:

$2.8 billion for Patriot missiles. Where's CIST's Sky Bow 3?

Sky Bow III is supposed to support the Patriot, not replace it.

bd popeye · 01-30-2010

mods note >>>> A.Man I moved your last post to the thread below.

China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

In my opinion that story is MORE about US-PRC relations. And it is worth a thread by itself.

bd popeye super moderator

Totoro · 01-31-2010

Do we know if the said blackhawks are really all blackhawks or are there some other variants included? SAR? Perhaps even ASW seahawks?

Mr T · 01-31-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro

Do we know if the said blackhawks are really all blackhawks or are there some other variants included? SAR? Perhaps even ASW seahawks?

Check the notification I linked to above. They're UH-60Ms, which I believe is the standard Black Hawk made for the US military at the moment.

Totoro · 01-31-2010

Indeed. Then it is actually somewhat benign sale overall. They couldve included F16s which we know taiwan wants, but they chose not to. The most 'dangerous' item on the list are pac3 missiles but even those are somewhat a drop in bucket of whats really needed.

I wouldnt be surprised if there was a lot of behind the scene talks with chinese prior to the sale approval. Chinese had to protest somehow to save face, and perhaps the military relationship will get back to what it was in a matter of months.

Mr T · 02-03-2010

Singapore Airshow: Eurocopter Secures Sale to Taiwan

Quote:

Taiwan's air force has selected the Eurocopter EC225 helicopter against a Sikorsky bid for the S-92 for a medium-lift helicopter requirement for search and rescue missions.

The contract for three helicopters was awarded to Eurocopter in December for $111 million. The deal includes an option for a total of 20 helicopters. The contract will be signed in the next few days, said a Taiwan defense source.

The deal comes as a surprise since European defense companies have shied away from arms sales to Taiwan in favor of lucrative commercial sales to China. There has not been a European arms deal with Taiwan since the early 1990s when France sold La Fayette-class frigates and Mirage 2000 fighters to Taiwan.

The sale comes on the heels of a $6 billion U.S. arms deal that included Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, Patriot missiles, navy mine sweepers and Harpoon training missiles.

What is equally odd about the contract award is China has remained silent on the issue after it threatened to sanction U.S. companies selling arms to Taiwan, and occurs at the same time European leaders have been pushing for a lifting of arms exports to China.

Confuse · 02-03-2010

i guess since its for search and rescue and that right now china and the EU want better ties i guess china would just "over look" it... Unlike the US which china is having a whole host of multiply problems with at the moment

rhino123 · 02-03-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confuse

i guess since its for search and rescue and that right now china and the EU want better ties i guess china would just "over look" it... Unlike the US which china is having a whole host of multiply problems with at the moment

I think the main thing here is that, the sales involved only Search and Rescue helicopters and it was only three of them, so China are not going to be barking at the sales. If the sales involved military equipment (no disguise there) and was stated as Arm sales, then China would jump.

The main difference about US sales to Europe sales are that the hardware sold was purely military such as missiles and Black Hawk Helicopters (optimise for military missions)... and they do not even bother disguising the sales and simply called it a major arm sales. This is something that is not acceptable in the Chinese point of view.

If Europe wanted to sell Taiwan Exocet and frigates, then you might be seeing China jumping sky high again.

Thus there really is no warming relationship between China and EU.

bd popeye · 02-06-2010

Those P-3s that the ROC purchased some years ago are finally being re-assembled ...

Quote:

Delivering Your Plane, By Truck

As part of Taiwan’s much-reported military modernization program, it’s ordering 12 P-3C Orion sea control aircraft to monitor its sea lanes, hunt enemy submarines, and make life dangerous for any ships in an invasion force. While Lockheed Martin was forced to re-open a wing line in Georgia, the main production line isn’t active any more. As a result, all 12 of the mothballed P-3s slated for Taiwan have to come from stored US Navy aircraft at AMARG’s “boneyard” near Davis-Monthan AFB, Tucson, AZ. The problem is that all 12 airframes were labeled “non-flyable” due to structural fatigue, which made the 2,000 mile trip to the refurbishment facility in Greenville, SC, a bit of a challenge.

After considering and rejecting rail transport due to offloading and re-loading risks, the AMARG team decided to use a flatbed truck. That’s an unusual method, but it worked. Their approach has stirred interest from other P-3 operators, and even US federal government agencies…

The process was anything but straightforward, and called for considerable customization. The AMARG team had to pull blueprints for the old BL-65 tool from the original production line, modify it, and build a custom cradle for the truck. The BL-65 tool was modified to fasten the fuselage securely to that cradle, which needed to prevent any bending or twisting. Just as a twisted auto frame can turn even a lightly damaged car a write-off, a bent or twisted fuselage could make the P-3 permanently unsafe for flight.

Once the team designed and built all the specialized components, the aircraft was disassembled and loaded onto 9 trucks: 4 oversize flatbeds for the fuselage, wings, empennage (entire tail assembly) and related horizontal tail section; and 5 trucks for crated components. The engines, propellers and landing gear will be shipped separately to various depots for repair and overhaul, prior to final delivery to Greenville.

AMARG accomplished the feat under budget and earlier than the allotted 6 months, and extensive symmetry and alignment tests on the fuselage in Greenville, SC found that the aircraft stayed true to shape during transport.

The second P-3 is already undergoing dis-assembly by AMARG, and the remaining aircraft will be transported over the next 3 years. The final aircraft is scheduled to leave Davis-Monthan AFB in June 2013. Meanwhile, AMARG’s innovative transport method is attracting interest from the US Forest Service, US Homeland Security, and other global P-3 operators. NAVAIR release.

kliu0 · 02-22-2010

U.S. Intel Report on Taiwan Air Power Released - Defense News

Looks like the prospects of getting new F-16s is looking better.

Snow Wolf · 02-26-2010

China's response was really over-the-top considering what was going on (Blackhawk helos and PAC-3s mainly, F-16s specifically avoided.)

It could have two effects: The Obama administration could decide, "If Beijing is going to overreact and pull their hair out no matter what, then we really might as well go ahead and sell big-ticket items like F-16s after all."

Or Obama could cave in - which looks like what he'll do after all.

Violet Oboe · 03-04-2010

Beijing is sending conflicting messages and the effect is that Washington interprets Chinese actions selectively i.e. the US perceives the ´hard line´ as bluff and bluster and the conciliatory ´soft line´ as the real PRC intention.

The recent port call of a USN carrier in Hong Kong was readily seen by US pundits as an indication that Beijing was only in ´huff and puff´ mode about the Taiwan arms sales and the Dalai White House visit. This is (at least in that sweeping form!) certainly a wrong analysis but the Chinese leadership has obviously not yet recognized that sending an indifferent and conflicting message is a self defeating exercise. Lets hope that this gets not out of hand.

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