Taiwan military news and discussion part II

I don't really think that the Harrier is a good solution to Taiwan's fighter gap problem. By the time it would come into service it would be obsolete. I seriously doubt that the Harrier would fare very well against J-10s and J-11s. As already stated its electronics are getting old and the airframes themselves are prone to stress. Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

Perhaps it is better than nothing but I would prefer for Taiwan to try to produce its own indigenous fighter that is more up-to-date and possibly/probably would end up in service quicker. I just feel like the Harrier would end up being another costly boondoggle that failed to meet Taiwan's actual needs (a fighter that can mix it up and prevent China from gaining air superiority for at least a while and can hit the invasion fleet.)

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

I don't really think that the Harrier is a good solution to Taiwan's fighter gap problem. By the time it would come into service it would be obsolete. I seriously doubt that the Harrier would fare very well against J-10s and J-11s. As already stated its electronics are getting old and the airframes themselves are prone to stress. Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

Perhaps it is better than nothing but I would prefer for Taiwan to try to produce its own indigenous fighter that is more up-to-date and possibly/probably would end up in service quicker. I just feel like the Harrier would end up being another costly boondoggle that failed to meet Taiwan's actual needs (a fighter that can mix it up and prevent China from gaining air superiority for at least a while and can hit the invasion fleet.)

The main idea behind the Harrier II+ I believe is that of an attack aircraft that can operate from anywhere and represent an attack detterance against mainland Chinese naval forces in the event of an invasion, its value as a fighter on the other hand is rather dubious, as it is not a fighter, it would be a sitting duck to frankly any other fighter aircraft, in the PLANAF inventory. The idea of turning the 737th Tactical Fighter Wing in an attack wing would require major restructing of the ROCAF.

I honestly don't think AIDC has had the time, funding or manpower anymore to simply draw up a new aircraft design, procure the components and then produce test aircraft fast enough to replace the F-5E, more Ching-Kuos (C/D variant) would simply be the easiest and least painful solution, especially considering it would only be for 60ish aircraft unless the ROCAF are serious about the Mirage 2000-5 retirement due to cost, which would require another ~60 aircraft to replace those, which in that case, would at least provide AIDC with enough government support to actually design a replacement for their F-16A/Bs within the coming decades. Simply buying more foriegn aircraft will only be a short term solution, especially refurbished aircraft like the A-4SU Super Skyhawk whos service lasted less than 10 years.

Yes, AIDC should open a new production line and produce more IDF C/Ds and work on a new second generation IDF. But I believe that the retirement of Mirage 2000-5 is a mistake, as that is the best fighter Taiwan has right now. The support for self-reliance will only happen under an administration like CKK which has supported the indigenous industry.

Originally Posted by kliu0

But I believe that the retirement of Mirage 2000-5 is a mistake

kliu, do you have access to some private news source, because I never understand where you get these comments from.

The article said Taiwan might mothball Mirages. You know what the difference is between that and what you said, right?

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

As you stated, theres no need to upgrade the AV-8B Harrier II because there are none, they all have already been upgraded to the + variant, the only airforces that operate the vanilla Harrier II are Italy and Spain, but IMO, gvien the timeline we are talking about (2015-2020), the already modest electronics capabilities of the + variant would be considered archaic (the radar is the single track AGP-65 which are getting very old). In addition the stress on VSTOL fighters would mean that the airframe itself would need to be refurbished. To extend the lifetime of any Harrier II, an engine refit is also most likely in order with new Pegasus 11-61/Mk.107s and within the next half decade or more a newer variat could be developed as well.

The APG-65 is taken straight off the F/A-18A/B Hornet, and many of the early Hornet's in service in Australian and Canadian service has had their radars replaced by the APG-73. Theoretically, the APG-73 could be moved onto the Harrier's, and an avionics modernization program can take place, as the primary targets would be the mission computer and the stores management system. However with the latter, the USMC is upgrading their Harriers with a MIL-STD-1760 bus system which would allow the carriage of more smart weapons.

The airframes would otherwise need refurbishment, but, given the time constraints and costs, it will be cheaper to do such an upgrade compared to developing a brand new VSTOL fighter.

Furthermore inducting the AV-8B into the force proved to be quite a problem for the USMC; it is difficult to fly and has a tendency to crash. Through analyzing their mistakes and training the pilots they were able to correct this but Taiwan might face similar problems.

This has seems to be the case with the USMC, but with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm, crashes are less frequent. The reasons suggested why is that British Harrier pilots have backgrounds flying helicopters before, and that the British purchased their two seater Harriers at the same time as the single seaters, while the USMC only purchased two seaters after their single seaters.

Simply buying more foriegn aircraft will only be a short term solution, especially refurbished aircraft like the A-4SU Super Skyhawk whos service lasted less than 10 years.

What needs to be avoided are radical upgrades of very old aircraft; the A-4SU's are an example of that. For the Singaporeans, getting 31 years of service out of the A-4 is impressive, but the original airframe is well over 30 years of age.

The CF-18 Hornet Incremental Modernization Project is more of what is being looked at, with the key focus being avionics modernization and airframe refurbishment. It is expected that with the upgrades, the CF-18 Hornet will be viable until 2017-2020, when a replacement for the Hornets will be sought.

Originally Posted by Mr T

kliu, do you have access to some private news source, because I never understand where you get these comments from.

The article said Taiwan might mothball Mirages. You know what the difference is between that and what you said, right?

Yes, I do have private sources for these issues. Let's just leave it at that.

I take back my previous comment regarding the mothballing of the Mirages.

"But I believe that the retirement of Mirage 2000-5 is a mistake"


With an obsolete F-5 fleet, good to be replaced asap, how can it be possible to consider a mothball of the Mirage 2000-5 fleet? Still one of the best aircrafts at air to air combats? Even a F-16 killer! That s quite a nonsense! Continue like this and the next step would be a simple dismantling of the ROCAF...

If some of you heard this from people, even from military executives closed to US military interests, you can consider this as a trully irresponsible view for the trends given to the ROCAF and taiwanese security for the next decade. These weird allegations also could come from PRC waves that are now trying to weaken Taiwan ROC and its identity, in every aspect, from political, military, to cultural ones...

I did say I take back the statement....

But......its understandable since its under the power of this administration. The trends are becoming clearer.....ultimately....it could lead to the dismantling of the military???

US may launch Taiwan Policy Review

Washington may soon launch a new Taiwan Policy Review that could have an enormous impact on bilateral relations.

While there have been no official announcements and foreign policy advisers close to both US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and US President Barack Obama refuse to discuss the subject, there are increasing rumors and speculation.

The Taipei Times has been told by senior congressional sources that a formal review is being considered by the Obama administration but that no decision has been made.

And Professor David Shambaugh, director of the China Policy Program at George Washington University, wrote earlier this month that there was a “growing discussion” in Washington of the need to undertake a thorough Taiwan Policy Review “given the dramatic and positive changes in cross-strait relations.”

Significantly, such a review would come at a time when Shambaugh — one of the most-respected China scholars in Washington — said that the Sino-US relationship appeared to be the best it has been in the 20 years since the “traumatizing” Tiananmen Square Massacre of 1989.

In a paper for the Foreign Policy Research Institute, Shambaugh said that resuming military-to-military exchanges with Beijing was a high priority for the Obama administration and recent bilateral discussions suggested such exchanges were slowly resuming.

“Concerning Taiwan, Washington is pleased with the trajectory of the issue since [President] Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) election. Cross-strait relations have substantially stabilized in all spheres. Of course, the real issue for the US in this area is the continuing buildup of ballistic missiles opposite Taiwan [now 1,000-plus], the large conventional force deployments in this theater and the continuing PLA exercises that simulate attack scenarios against the island,” he said.

“It would be politically astute for Beijing to unilaterally freeze all three as a goodwill gesture to enhance confidence on Taiwan and advance the process of cross-strait rapprochement. Doing so would put pressure on Washington to reconsider the rationale for a new arms package, i.e. whether it sends official notification to Congress of its intent to carry through on the [former US president George W. Bush] administration’s October 2008 declaration of intent to sell,” he wrote.

A full Taiwan Policy Review was first conducted in 1979 after the US shifted recognition to Beijing.

The second such review was not held until 15 years later under former US president Bill Clinton in 1994.

It was said at that time that the new Taiwan policy would “strike the right balance between Taipei and Beijing, laying the basis for further expanding relations with both while ensuring continued peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait.”

The Obama administration might well argue that another review would be timely.

Shambaugh said in his paper that while the “chronic problem” of Taiwan was at low ebb and East Asia was at peace (notwithstanding the North Korean nuclear problem) — the path was clear for the US and China to focus on regional and global cooperation.

“To be sure, the Taiwan issue remains potent and as long as the arms sales issue hangs over the relationship, bilateral relations are not fully normalized,” he said.

It is not clear, Shambaugh said, exactly what Clinton and the White House have in mind concerning initiating arms control talks with China.

“Presumably it means that they are interested in negotiating some kind of strategic arms ceilings with China. If so, the Obama administration is likely to run up against the longstanding Chinese position that the US and Russia must first radically reduce the tens of thousands of warheads in their arsenals below 1,000 on each side before China will even consider joining such negotiations,” he said.

Beijing has 400-plus nuclear warheads but only several dozen deployed on its 30-plus intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Shambaugh said that China was hoping the US arms sale to Taiwan will not go through.

Taiwan to reach consensus with U.S. before issuing request for F-16 jets

Taiwan will first try to reach a consensus with the United States before issuing a request to buy advanced F-16C/D fighter jets, a senior defense official said yesterday.

Vice Defense Minister Chang Liang-jen told lawmakers that attempts by the previous administration to request 66 of the more sophisticated aircraft had met with rejection from Washington, so the new government of President Ma Ying-jeou would first hold talks to try and reach a consensus before discussing the price.

Chang's comments at the Legislative Yuan's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee followed Ma's call for the U.S. to sell Taiwan the planes so it can maintain a military balance against China. Speaking to U.S. scholars by videoconference Wednesday, Ma emphasized the jets were needed for defensive purposes.

Last October, Washington agreed to provide Taiwan with a defense package including 30 Apache attack helicopters, 32 Harpoon submarine-launched missiles, 182 Javelin guided missiles, and 330 Patriot missiles.

Ma promised Taiwan would make efforts of its own to maintain its defense against China's growing and rapidly modernizing military forces. The president reminded the academics of his promise to raise Taiwan's military budget to 3 percent of the Gross Domestic Product.

Chang said the U.S. had not closed the door on selling F-16 jets and submarines to Taiwan, but that delays were occurring because the administration of President Barack Obama had not completed all the necessary defense appointments yet.

If the deal couldn't go ahead in the near future, Taiwan was considering upgrading its 150 F-16A/B jets, defense officials told lawmakers.

Taiwan Eyes Variants for Special Ops Forces - Defense News

Taiwan Eyes Variants for Special Ops Forces - Defense News

TAIPEI - Washington is expected to approve the release of 60 Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopters for Taipei during the third quarter of this year, a Taiwan defense industry source said.

The initial plan is for 60 utility copters, the source said, but there are "plans for additional configurations," possibly the MH-60 Pave Hawk special operations variant.

Taiwan has been beefing up its special operations capabilities and merged all Army special operations units under the new Aviation and Special Forces Command (ASFC) in 2006, a Ministry of National Defense (MND) source said.

The Army's special operations units include the 862 Airborne Brigade, Airborne and Special Service Company (counterterrorism unit), and the 101 Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion ("Army Frogmen").

The ASFC also has been upgrading its attack, cargo and utility helicopter capabilities, and has been pushing hard to replace the UH-1H since the death of eight ASFC members in a crash during an April 2007 night exercise.

Taiwan's aging UH-1H utility helicopters are in dire need of replacement. The state-run Aerospace Industrial Development Corp. (AIDC) assembled 118 UH-1Hs under contract with Bell Helicopter during the 1970s. There are about 60 UH-1Hs in operation, the MND source said, and plans are to continue using the remaining helicopters in conjunction with the Black Hawks until they are inoperable.

However, the Obama administration's release of the Black Hawks is expected to raise protests from Beijing. China canceled military-to-military relations with the United States after the October release of a $6.4 billion arms deal, which included AH-64D Apache Longbows, Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missiles and submarine-launched Harpoon missiles. Relations were re-established in February.

Beijing said little over the March release of 12 P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft for sale to Taiwan for $655 million, and the Taiwan defense industry source played down fears the United States will reduce the number of Black Hawks to placate China.

"I think the 60 will go or nothing," the source said. "It would not make much sense politically to authorize a reduced number. Black Hawks are not a game-changer across the [Taiwan] Strait, no matter how many Taiwan bought."

For both the attack and utility bid, there was fierce competition from Bell, which offered the AH-1Z attack and UH-1Y utility helicopter and coproduction deals with AIDC. To further sweeten the deal, Bell signed a $10 million contract with AIDC in 2003 to produce 280 tail booms/elevators for U.S. Marine AH-1Z and UH-1Y helicopters.

However, over the past 20 years, Bell was outmaneuvered by Boeing and Sikorsky. Boeing secured the sale of nine CH-47SD Dakota helicopters for the ASFC in 1998, and since the late 1980s, the Air Force and Navy have operated the Sikorsky S-70C, the civilian version of the Black Hawk, for search and rescue, VIP and anti-submarine warfare missions.

There was criticism over Boeing's closure of its Taiwan office in 2007 because of pressure from Beijing, but even that decision did not hurt sales. The United States released 30 AH-64D Block III Apache Longbows in October for an estimated $2.5 billion. The sale included 173 Stinger Block I air-to-air missiles and 1,000 AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire missiles.

The Apaches will join the ASFC's inventory of 63 Bell AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopters procured in the 1990s. The Super Cobras are armed with the BGM-71 Tube-Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire-Guided missile system; AGM-114C/K3 Hellfire missiles; M260 rocket launcher; M261 rocket launcher; and M197 three-barrel 20mm rotary cannon.

Taiwan's strategy is to deploy attack helicopters in a maritime anti-amphibious role to counter an invasion from China, as well as in the traditional role of ground support for the infantry.

The Cobras make up two Army aviation squadrons under the ASFC, which also fields the armed Bell OH-58D Kiowa Warrior and UH-1H. Taiwan procured 38 Kiowas during the 1990s. The new Apaches will replace aging Kiowas in the armed reconnaissance role.

I thought the original order was 90 UH-60 Black Hawks? Its about time the US sold them, the UH-1H is ageing and the modernisation of the Taiwan military is an urgent issue.

I believe they should also further modernise and update existing equipment. Super Cobras can be upgraded even further to AH-1Z even so the UH-1H to the new UH-1Y. Co-production with AIDC presents alot of benefits. The deal with Bell seems to offer alot benefits to the local economy, improving military equipment, inexpensive and helping out Bell which isn't having good business these days. Perhaps in the next few years, when the economy is better and supposedly "all volunteer" military will save more money which can be reinvested into these helicopters.

The USMC is spending a lot of $$ on the AH-1Z and UH-1Y upgrade project. ROCA can simply piggyback on USMC project with local co-production and tech transfer.

But noooooooooooooo~

People in positions of power for acquisitions would prefer if domestic industry went belly up so they can just import everything made abroad.

I could rant about this until the sun comes up, but it's pointless.

Same here.....I wish to rant along with you. Thats whats wrong with the ROC Military.....they like everything new and imported rather than worthwhile, beneficial and less expensive upgrades.

Originally Posted by kliu0

Same here.....I wish to rant along with you. Thats whats wrong with the ROC Military.....they like everything new and imported rather than worthwhile, beneficial and less expensive upgrades.

Upgrading the existing Super Cobras is not Taiwan's first choice because the ROCA needs to replace the Kiowas. As for the Hueys, I doubt they would last long enough even if they were upgraded.

So it will still require newly-built helicopters, even if they could be locally produced. Which then are actually better for the Army is a matter of opinion, but that may not be the same thing as what's best for local industry.