Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Taiwan may build its own submarines

TAIPEI, Taiwan -- President Ma Ying-jeou is trying to resurrect Project Diving Dragon to create more job opportunities in the shipbuilding industry.

Under the project, which was aborted five years ago, Taiwan would build eight conventional diesel-powered submarines, which President George W. Bush authorized as part of the U.S. arms sales in 2001.

At least five top-level defense meetings have been held to evaluate the possibility that the eight underwater warships can be locally assembled, sources close to the National Security Council said yesterday.

No unanimous agreement was reached, sources said.

Final reports on the meetings, which offered a number of options but recommended construction of the submarines in Taiwan, are being prepared for President Ma's approval.

Ma is likely to give the green light for the local construction to stimulate the economy and help reduce unemployment, sources revealed.

It's not an easy job to resurrect Project Diving Dragon.

First of all, Washington's nod is required. America's full support is needed to arm the submarines and make them operable, too.

The previous Democratic Progressive Party administration took no action on the purchase of the eight submarines for years until 2004.

When it finally proposed a special budget for the purchase, the Legislative Yuan under control of the then-opposition Kuomintang refused to act on it because an exorbitant NT$412.1 billion price tag was attached to the eight conventional submarines.

James Soong, chairman of the People First Party, called the deal “a fool's arms purchase.” His party, together with the Kuomintang, formed a paper-thin majority in the Legislative Yuan.

The United States has already phased out construction of conventional submarines and the Pentagon wanted Taiwan to buy them from a third country. Taiwan proposed Project Diving Dragon.

Washington modified the sales in 2007, after Taiwan's submarine building project was turned down. The Ministry of National Defense has continued to phase in the purchase in small installments, which has yet to be concluded.

The fact is that the deal is being stalled.

Opinion is divided over whether the eight submarines should be built in Taiwan.

Just like at the time the project was aborted, many brass hats doubt Taiwan's shipbuilding capability. General Tang Yao-ming, the then-minister of national defense, testified at a Legislative Yuan committee meeting in 2004 nobody could guarantee the seaworthiness of locally built submarines.

“If sailors are killed in a test run, who is going to take responsibility?” questioned Tang, an air force general. Similar questions are being asked now.

But shipbuilders are confident they are up to the job.

“A research plan is under way to build submarine hulls up to the international standard,” said Wang Keh-hsuan, vice general manager of the CSBC Corp., Taiwan.

Wang said his state-owned company formerly known as China Shipbuilding Corporation is fully equipped to build submarines with 2,000 to 3,000 deadweight tons.

“Of course, all weapons and communications systems will have to be purchased from abroad,” Wang added. “We are all set to undertake the construction, if it is offered,” he stressed.

Fears over the safety of locally-built submarines is legitimate, but that's the challenge Taiwan has to take if it wants to have submarines of its own.

Opponents should be reminded that Japan sacrificed hundreds of officers and men to finally succeed in building its own submarines and the Zero fighter, both the best in the world at the time of their debut prior to Pearl Harbor in 1941.

A number of newly built submarines submerged but never came up in their test runs. Many test pilots were killed when their new Zero fighters crash-landed.

Even if a locally-built submarine is more costly than one purchased from abroad, Taiwan has to build its own underwater fighting craft, because naval powers around the world refuse to sell them to Taiwan for fear they might offend the People's Republic.

Originally Posted by kliu0

Taiwan may build its own submarines

Wow, a lot of people have an extremely low opinion of Taiwan's shipbuilding capacity! In any other country such an undertaking would never draw this much criticism. It seems strange that their is such strong resistence to a made in Taiwan solution rather than having to jump through hoops to buy submarines from overseas.

Well, Taiwan has built alot of container ships and luxury yachts (one of its main industries). They've also built the Oliver Perry Class ships when the US allowed them for sale. CSBC have already built a hull of a submarine, I say why not let Taiwan build a submarine? Once we learn to build em, we can build em ourselves and just buy submarine armaments and tech gear instead of buying whole subs which can piss off China. Of course this process will be very expensive and could be deadly, but its always worth the effort, as Taiwan becomes more isolated. Taiwan can only truly rely on itself to make things work.

Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster

Wow, a lot of people have an extremely low opinion of Taiwan's shipbuilding capacity! In any other country such an undertaking would never draw this much criticism. It seems strange that their is such strong resistence to a made in Taiwan solution rather than having to jump through hoops to buy submarines from overseas.

If you're talking about the previous defence minister's comments, I think that was because he was trying to get support for the US-foreign build, which was then stalled in the Taiwanese legislative. I think there is a lot of support for the idea of a Taiwanese-built submarine in Taiwan.

This is interesting news, certainly. I will wait until it becomes part of government policy and money is provided for it as the article could be wrong. But if it does go ahead it represents Taiwan's best chance of new submarines.

What is key is whether it can get the US and/or European support for the internal systems. It's all very well if Taiwan can make the hulls, but if they're filled with noisy crap all it'll do is create some jobs! But that's a risk Taiwan may have to take.

Originally Posted by kliu0

Well, Taiwan has built alot of container ships and luxury yachts (one of its main industries). They've also built the Oliver Perry Class ships when the US allowed them for sale. CSBC have already built a hull of a submarine, I say why not let Taiwan build a submarine? Once we learn to build em, we can build em ourselves and just buy submarine armaments and tech gear instead of buying whole subs which can piss off China. Of course this process will be very expensive and could be deadly, but its always worth the effort, as Taiwan becomes more isolated. Taiwan can only truly rely on itself to make things work.

It is very difficult for a nation that never built submarines before to start building them; the trials and tribulations of Australia's Collins-class submarines is a prime example of this. And the Australians had the help of the Americans and the Swedish and still had major issues.

I too was going to mention the Collins Class. Starting sub building from scratch is exceedingly difficult. Taiwan has the technological capability but putting it all together is going to be tough and probably overbudget. I think that this program is too important not to go forward though. Diesel electric subs and stealthy well-armed missle FACs are going to be the future of Taiwan's sea based defence.

The Australian Navy had spent considerable amount of time and effort to fix Collins class sub and Adelaide class FFG upgrade projects. ROCN could benefit from a tech transfer, without having to reinvent the wheel. Only question is are the Australians willing, and what kind of price tag they'd put on the technology.

I am not a military expert or politician....but i can confidently say that australia will never give sub tech to taiwan. Think about the repurcusion from china....too much to lose on trade and relationship.

Originally Posted by Autumn Child

I am not a military expert or politician....but i can confidently say that australia will never give sub tech to taiwan. Think about the repurcusion from china....too much to lose on trade and relationship.

I think you're right. Australia's trade is too closely connected with China to help Taiwan out, at least directly. It's more likely that if Taiwan received assistance it would be from the US or Europe. The former can get away with arms sales/technology co-operation with Taiwan, whereas the latter isn't so dependent on China that member states would definitely pass up the opportunity to make indirect sales.

Plus, Kevin Rudd (Australia PM) is a strong pro-China guy. His pro-China policies were one of his platforms in his election in 2007.

I doubt he'll do much, if anything at all, to upset his strong relationship with China right now.

Kevin Rudd may be Pro-China, but he had a hisory in Taiwan. He spent quite a number of years there, mostly studying Chinese (language) and culture. So I dunno, but naturaly you'd come to expect that Australia wouldn't sell stuff to Taiwan anyway.

Now back to the topic, weren't the Europeans reluctant to selling sub tech to Taiwan?

Originally Posted by kliu0

Now back to the topic, weren't the Europeans reluctant to selling sub tech to Taiwan?

How can they be reluctant to sell submarine technology when they haven't been asked yet? They have been reluctant to sell submarines, but as far as I know they haven't been asked for and refused to give any technology. German companies have sold engines for Taiwanese attack boats, so I don't see why they couldn't sell engines for submarines.

The main problem is TW itself. The procurement people would rather import everything because they don't have any confidence in local manufacturing. S. Korea is the opposite where they want to build everything locally instead.

I'm not saying that it's economical or technically feasible to everything yourself. But if Taiwan Rail could import technology from Toshiba and structure the 160 unit purchase with 16 made in Japan and 148 made in TW/ROC, why can't the MRT or HSR do the same? Why does Taiwan have to be a fattened sheep to everyone else?

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If there's strong political will to allocate funding and procure technology abroad, then yes, the ROCN can have "Made in TW" submarines. Unfortunately the government has to be put in a position where they're forced to procure locally. Sad.

I dont get why they dont have confidence. The IDF itself is very reliable, in terms of maintenance and the accident ratio is very low for a first timer in building fighter planes. Taiwan built the Oliver Perry ships without a problem and provided increased expertise in shipbuilding which has somewhat contributed to the indigenous Kwang Hua VI. In addition, overseas procurements tend to come with a hefty price tag, not to mention Chinese pressure and also corruption (eg. French La Fayette Scandal).

South Korea is really smart in terms of military procurement, paying more money to Western countries for licensed manufacturing gives them employment opportunities, improved defence industry and more insight into more military tech thus allowing future arms to be more indigenous....if that makes any sense.