Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Please note that the previous thread can be found here.

Please read through it before asking questions, as many issues have been dealt with and explained there.

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US officials confirm diesel submarine sale will go ahead

Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Shuai Hua-min (帥化民) said on Saturday US officials have told a delegation of Taiwanese legislators that Washington will go ahead with the sale of diesel-powered submarines to Taiwan even if the Democrats win next year's US presidential election.

The delegation was also told that four US companies that intend to participate in the bid have found European manufacturers to cooperate with, Shuai said.

In a visit arranged by the Ministry of Defense, Shuai, KMT Legislator Su Chi (蘇起), and Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Legislator Mark Ho (何敏豪) arrived in Washington on Wednesday.

The delegation also visited companies that intend to participate in the bid for the diesel-powered submarines.

I thought the comment on European co-operation was interesting, as it appears there are ways to bypass the restrictions on direct European submarine sales to Taiwan. Of course what this co-operation would specifically be is an issue, but the fact that European companies are there to help at all is important for the project.

I don't know who's going to build these boats for the ROCN. I see four companies are bidding. Any idea who? I bet Electric Boat is one...Also I would not all be surprised if the USN in the next couple of years orders a few SSK's....As we all know, this goes without sayin, this will be shared technology..

Originally Posted by bd popeye

I don't know who's going to build these boats for the ROCN. I see four companise are bidding. Any idea who? I bet Electric Boat is one.

It could be the case that there will be co-operation, with more than one company winning the bid - I'm just speculating on that point.

I'm not sure who else is bidding, but the legislators' tour itinerary includes visits to General Dynamics' Bath Iron Works and Northrop Grumman Newport News, so that would suggest GD and NG are bidding too.

Also I would not all be surprised if the USN in the nestxt couple of years orders a few SSK's....As we all know, this goes without sayin, this will be shared technology..

Even if the USN didn't, having a production line for the export of submarines would be great for the US defence industry. It's an opportunity to impress the world and establish a reputation for the production of conventionally-powered submarines (something that a lot of countries want these days) that shouldn't be wasted.

IMO the US has long considered submarines to be an offensive platform, and therefore did not like to export them. This is further complicated by the fact that USN has gone with all nuclear powered submarine fleet, they don't like to export nuclear-powered ships, and I doubt the surface-fleet admirals like the idea of submarine proliferation either.

It's very unlikely that Taiwan would obtain subs of Russian or Japanese design, so that leavers us with European designs, unless if the US somehow produce an entirely new design. If we look at recent EU sub designs, we have:

French Scopene
German HDW U-Boat (Type 2XX)
Swedish Gotland class
Dutch Walrus class (old)
Australian Collins class (non-EU)

Can anyone think of other possibilities? Brazilian Tupi class?

Originally Posted by FuManChu

Please note that the previous thread can be found here.

Please read through it before asking questions, as many issues have been dealt with and explained there.

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US officials confirm diesel submarine sale will go ahead



I thought the comment on European co-operation was interesting, as it appears there are ways to bypass the restrictions on direct European submarine sales to Taiwan. Of course what this co-operation would specifically be is an issue, but the fact that European companies are there to help at all is important for the project.

I would not be surprised to learn, with their new administration in place, that the French are now willing to assist in this deal. we shall see.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

I would not be surprised to learn, with their new administration in place, that the French are now willing to assist in this deal. we shall see.

Jeff, I was thinking the same thing - great minds think alike, eh?

I'm sure direct sales will again be ruled out. But Sarkozy is a lot more willing to get on with the US. It doesn't mean he will actively help, but if French companies are involved with the US bidders.... he may look the other way and not block it.

Originally Posted by adeptitus

unless if the US somehow produce an entirely new design.

What I've heard is that the US will either "obtain" a European design (maybe tweaking it so that it isn't instantly recognisable to avoid blow-back towards that country), or European knowledge will be used to modify the Barbel-class design, which to be honest isn't that bad. It's more the inner components and systems that need updating.

I think a direct purchase from France is not likely to happen. As far as I know the corruption investigations on Mirage 2000 and La Fayette frigate purchases are still on-going. There are many articles on the web, if anyone is interested they can simply Google it.

French weapons also tend to be very expensive. Taiwan has its own shipyards, I'd advocate importing designs and critical components for local build/assembly. If S. Korea could do it, I don't see why Taiwan cannot. But unfortunately this deal is tied to the US, so I don't think they'd get away with not ordering subs built in US shipyards.

I'm surprised that this deal actually went off at all, considering all the thing that could have gone wrong. However, mainly because the US doesn't really have diesel sub building capability readily available, this might take a while to come to fruition. Perhaps the Taiwanese will obtain an upgraded version of whatever the last US diesel sub was and produce it in Taiwan.

A European nation who supplied blueprints and tech transfer for a submarine for Taiwan would likely face retaliation from China as if it had sold the sub directly. (Of course, even with that logic, one shouldn't expect France or anyone else to sell directly....)

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

I'm surprised that this deal actually went off at all, considering all the thing that could have gone wrong. However, mainly because the US doesn't really have diesel sub building capability readily available, this might take a while to come to fruition. Perhaps the Taiwanese will obtain an upgraded version of whatever the last US diesel sub was and produce it in Taiwan.

The last USN diesel submarine warship in service was probably the Barbel class, built in 1950s. Someone had already edited the wiki entry for Barbel class to speculate that the US might either sell plans for this sub, or build an upgraded version for ROCN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbel_class_submarine

But I'm really iffy on this 50+ year old design...

Ideally, I'd like to see TW obtain plans and tech assistance from HDW/Germany for local build/assembly. Type 212 w/tech transfer is probably impossible, so Type 209 (or even downgraded 214) is more likely. I'm not very optimistic however.

I believe TW's defense industry is perfectly capable of constructing planes, ships, subs, tanks, missiles, etc. Certain high tech components may require import (i.e. high performance aircraft engines), but they should be able to handle the integration and assembly like S. Korea. CSC has already proven itself in constructing 8 OH Perry class Frigates locally.

It may cost more to do local construction, but in the long run it's better than taking hand-me downs or beg other countries to sell to you. Buying completed weapon systems is often controversial and mired in politics, but license production plans, components, sub-assemblies, etc. are smaller ticket items individually and may have better chances of slipping through.

Military spending to increase 16.4% next year


Taiwan News Online


The Cabinet approved a 4.4 percent increase in government spending for next year with more than a fifth of the NT$1.7 trillion budget earmarked for Taiwan's growing military program.

The budget approved by the Cabinet yesterday morning projects a NT$97.9 billion deficit in 2008 based on an estimated 7.6 percent rise in government revenues to NT$1.6 trillion, the Directorate General for Budget, Accounting and Statistics said.

The budget still requires legislative approval, but its military spending provisions could make that difficult.

The government has requested a defense funding increase of 16.4 percent to NT$341 billion, and includes NT$19.2 billion to purchase military hardware such as P-3C Orion anti-submarine patrol aircraft and NT$10 billion to purchase fighter jets.

The Legislature didn't pass the 2007 budget until June, in part because of disputes over a weapons package offered by the United States in April 2001, which has been in limbo in the lawmaking body since approved by the Cabinet in June 2004.

Taiwan is boosting defense spending to keep up with China, whose defense budget rose a record 17.8 percent to 350 billion yuan (US$46 billion) this year.

Defense accounts for the largest share - 20.1 percent - of Taiwan's spending plans for next year.

Education will claim the second largest slice of the budget, with NT$318 billion earmarked, up 2.3 percent from this year, followed by social welfare spending at NT$298 billion, up 0.7 percent. The social welfare spending includes an increase of NT$1.67 billion for elderly welfare subsidies and a new national pension for the handicapped and an NT$8.46 billion increase in living allowances for aged farmers.

Economic development will take the third largest chunk of proposed government spending at NT$202 billion, up 0.8 percent, the DGBAS said.

Some NT$77.3 billion is set aside for the central government's "Project for the Expansion of Public Construction for 2008," which includes NT$15 billion for a center of excellence project for top universities, NT$7.4 billion for national historical and cultural centers, NT$5.6 billion for the M-Taiwan project to enhance the country's telecommunication and internet service infrastructure, NT$6.9 billion for transforming the Taiwan Railway Administration into a short-haul metropolitan mass rapid transit system, NT$9.3 billion for freeway construction, NT$22.7 billion for metro system development in northern, central and southern Taiwan, NT$8.1 billion for sanitary sewer construction, and NT$2 billion for water supply improvement projects.

Although unsubstantial, a potential flash point in the budget is the additional NT$20 million earmarked for the president's state affairs fund that would restore it to its original NT$50 million level. Taiwan's first lady is currently on trial for allegedly misusing the fund, while President Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁) was spared an indictment for the same offense because of his presidential immunity.

In the wake of the allegations, the opposition-controlled Legislature cut the fund by NT$20 million in 2007.

The Cabinet also approved a 10-measure proposal to save energy and develop reusable energy, including encouraging motorists not to drive one day each week, the statement said.

Taiwan's AIDC proposes future fighter

By Siva Govindasamy
28/08/07

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-fighter.html

Taiwan's Aerospace Industrial Development Corporation (AIDC) is studying the development of a successor to its F-CK-1 Indigenous Defence Fighter (IDF), with the so-called F-CKX to enter service by the end of the next decade given approval by the nation's defence ministry.

Government funding is necessary for the project to go ahead and AIDC could ask for it from the 2009 fiscal year, says chairman Kent Feng. For now, the company's first priority is to get funding for the upgraded IDF, which AIDC calls the F-CK-2. "These upgrades are essential for the F-CK-1 fleet. We've test flown two aircraft now, and we hope to get the budget to go ahead with them from the 2008 fiscal year," says Feng.

Upgraded and new fighters are essential for Taiwan's air force, with its Northrop F-5s in need of replacement and around half of its Dassault Mirage 2000s grounded due to a lack of spare parts. Taipei wants to buy 66 Lockheed Martin F-16C/Ds to bolster its fleet of around 130 F-16A/Bs, but the $1.3 billion deal is unlikely to be approved by the US administration until next year. It is also interested in Lockheed's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, but is not a programme partner and will be low in the exports priority list. Some observers estimate that the earliest it would get the F-35, if it is even allowed to due to the design's use of stealth materials, will be well into the 2020s.

"Taiwan needs to replenish its air force in the next decade and our next-generation fighter could be the answer. A new aircraft would take at least 10 years to develop, so we must start now," says Feng, who concedes that AIDC needs massive investment if it is to gain the technological know-how and industrial capability to design and produce a new fighter. Collaboration with foreign partners is possible, and Feng says: "If Western companies want to help us, we are willing to talk to them."

However, Whether western manufacturers would be willing to work with the company is another issue, says one Taipei-based observer. "I don't see how the legislature will give its approval for such a big project, given that all military procurements are facing difficulty in getting funding, and especially when it would be far cheaper to just go and buy new aircraft outright," the observer notes.

"Next, all Western manufacturers now have a good relationship with China, and the USA is keen on good ties with the mainland as well. Would they risk that by helping Taiwan build a new fighter? I doubt it. This project will be an uphill task for AIDC and Taiwan."

This is excellent news for the Taiwanese Air Force. They need an indigenous fighter so they do not have to jump through hoops to get their hands on aircraft that aren't even top quality. An indigenous fighter also solves the missle and spare part shortage problem. I and several others been saying for a long time that the Taiwanese could do this and produce more weapons at home. This a major step in the right direction for them.

They will need foreign help though. Especially in engine technology. The original F-CK suffered/s from underpowered engines. I also was not aware that the Mirages were so badly off in the area of spares.

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

This is excellent news for the Taiwanese Air Force. They need an indigenous fighter so they do not have to jump through hoops to get their hands on aircraft that aren't even top quality.

Certainly a locally designed and made plane would be a great asset. It will be a difficult road but one I think that should be pursued.

I also was not aware that the Mirages were so badly off in the area of spares.

It was reported (I think in July) that was the case. However, as far as I know the problem was only due to a temporary supply problem. Spare parts were scheduled to be shipped, either arriving in September or this month to allow the fleet to be brought up to speed next month.