Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Taiwan currently already has the ability to build the IDF fighter planes, UH-1H, F-5s, they can build turrets for tanks (M60A3, CM32 etc) and of course APC such as the CM32. The only major problem with the advancement of the Taiwanese defence industry is that there is too little funding. The government only looks to their own defence industry when all else fails. Right now, under these circumstances I presume that they would continue funding and perhaps increase the budget of Taiwan's defence industry to develop and upgrade their military. As mentioned before Taiwan is currently going to upgrade their IDF to C/D standards.

Taiwan already mass produces ammunition, and has a substantial amount of investment in their missile R&D and production. So it should take substantially less than a decade for Taiwan to fully build up its defence industry, with the right amount of funding of course.

Any more political chit chat and I will issue warnings and close this thread.

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bd popeye super moderator

the problem for Taiwan is it lacks the budget and production capability for military hardware procurements even if there is the political will of the government. With the current economy and industrial production capability, China can easily ovetaken taiwan in either weapon purchasing or production progames

Since I proposed upgrades (for discussion), let's look at what the ROC military has and what is realistically within reach. To start, let's look at the ROC Army, sadly equipped with many Vietnam-era gear. Here's a picture of locally-built CM-32 IFV with 105mm turret, and a truck chassis 155m SP:



The ROC defense industry has locally produced CM-32 IFV, CM-21 APC (M113) & variants (CM21-27), 117mm MLRS (Kung Feng, Thunderbolt 2000 by CIST), UH-1H (by AIDC), etc. Some ROC Army vehicle photos can be found here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=86006

Current MBT inventory includes 480 x M60A3, 550 x M48/H (CM11/12), and 675 x M41. The M41's role is slated to be replaced by the wheeled CM-32.

Since M1A2 imports would be expensive and politically controversial, I think the ROC Army should look at M60-2000/120S upgrade package as an interim solution. This upgrade includes new turret with 120mm M256 gun, power pack, transmission, export-grade (M1A1) armor and FCS package. These parts can be imported from the US, and a M60 rebuild plant set up in Taiwan to rebuild and install the new components. The upgrade kits can be ordered in batches, it's cheaper and less politically volatile.

Looking to the future, the upgrade path would be: imported M1A2 (later) replacing M60's role as primary front-line MBT, upgraded M60-2000/120S replacing CM11/CM12, and CM32 replacing M41. The Vietnam-war era M41 and M48's would be retired for storage or scrapping.


For light armored vehicles the ROC Army probably has over 900 x M113 APC and its variants (CM21-27), few hundred assorted other types, and 600 CM-32 planned. Many of the M113 APC in ROC Army inventory has been upgraded with better armor. However I see 2 areas in need of improvement: remote-controlled overhead weapon station, and ATGM's.

Most of the ROC Army APC photos I've seen show gunners manning weapons on top. If you're going to upgrade armor package for better protection, why stick the gunner and commander outside to get shot at? The Israelis produced some nice remote-controlled weapon stations for their vehicles:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israe...mall_arms.html

Ideally, a remote-controlled weapon station shouldn't take too much space inside the vehicle, and have both remote-control (closed hatch) and manual operator (open hatch) modes. In the event of system failure, the gun should have manual operator mode. This kind of system should be easy enough for ROC defense industry to develop themselves.

For the CM-32, I think they should look into an auto-cannon + ATGM turret version. Perhaps large caliber AC too. The ATGM can be mounted in sealed box launchers externally. If we look at recent Lebanon conflict, ATGM's have proven itself as an excellent weapon against both enemy armor and fixed/fortified positions, such as taking out a building. The ATGM's can be imported, while the turret/system design and install done locally.

For Artillery, the assorted M109A? SP can be upgraded to M109A6 PIM specs. Locally built 155mm SP can supplement the artillery needs. The ROC Army has a lot of WW2 and Vietnam era artillery pieces that can probably be retired.

The ROC Army has some M1097 Avengers and couple thousand Humvee's. Recently the US troops in Iraq has pressed for an upgrade to the Avenger system, replacing one of the missile pods with FLIR/laser sensors and a .50 cal MG with 650 rounds w/360 degree firing arc. The troops are also asking for a variant with 1 x quad Stinger SAM pod, and 1 x dual Javelin ATGM pod integrated with sensor pod and .50 MG w/600 rounds.

This is something that the ROC Army can look into for a light & fast weapon platform, based on Humvee chassis with crew of 3. The ROC defense industry can develop such modifications and refit to existing Humvee chassis, or build new ones. Perhaps with weapon load of 4 x ATGM, 2 x SAM, and 1 x .50 cal MG. Great for light mobile infantry support. Here's the Japanese domestic version with SAMs:



For army aviation, I think they have 60 x AH-1W and 80 x UH-1H. AIDC built the UH-1H under license so I'm sure they have build/rebuild capability. As interim solution I'd suggest rebuilding them to AH-Z & UH-1Y specs. The UH-1Y rebuild has newer/better rotor, engine, protection, avionics, payload, range, and speed, plus added external weapon stations. They can be rebuild from UH-1H airframe and has 84% parts commonality with AH-1W for better logistics.

The AH-1/UH-1 rebuild would serve as an interim solution to acquiring new helicopters, then serve in supplemental role to newly acquired helicopters (AH-64D, UH-60M). New helicopters are very expensive and it'd be difficult for the ROC Army to replace older ones on 1 to 1 basis. But rebuild older helicopters are cheaper and less politically volatile to import the parts for local assembly/rebuild.

Taiwan has legalized its own Communist Party?

http://news.qq.com/a/20080721/001229.htm

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Any more political chit chat and I will issue warnings and close this thread.

You new members need to read the forum rules

FORUM Rules. ALL members please READ!!

bd popeye super moderator

When I joined this forum I looked for rule threads since I thought political discussion on a sino forum would be unacceptable but I found none, sorry if I caused any tension.


In regards to ROC defense, air power is the real deal here and lack of backing from the USA is a real disadvantage, the USA could take on China in a conventional war, but a nuclear war, it is questionable.

Originally Posted by sinowarrior

the problem for Taiwan is it lacks the budget and production capability for military hardware procurements even if there is the political will of the government. With the current economy and industrial production capability, China can easily ovetaken taiwan in either weapon purchasing or production progames

It doesn't lack the budget, just the funding. The former administration has for several years decreased the amount of spending to below 3% of the GDP. Now that the new administration has come in, spending is going to be at least 3% of the GDP. However as good as it seems there are still major budget cuts in the military for some stupid reason even though more money is flowing in.

No one here doubts that the Chinese can easily overtake Taiwan production wise. What we're trying to say is that Taiwan should increase its own defence industry, not by trying to match China's but to have the ability to sustain its defence needs if foreign countries don't sell what Taiwan needs or wants.

Originally Posted by crobato

Taiwan has legalized its own Communist Party?

http://news.qq.com/a/20080721/001229.htm

I highly doubt that its legitimate. News from China is always "censored to favour the Chinese government", just like Xinhua and CCTV. Who is going to vote for them anyway.....even die hard unificationists vote for the KMT or the New Party. Communism just isn't popular in Taiwan, and with 75% voting in the last election, you can say that the Taiwanese enjoy their democracy.

Sorry for being political. I got nothing more to say.

By the way guys, this was what i was talking about yesterday. The fake guards thing.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/fron.../23/2003418276

Military berated for use of ‘dummy guards’ in Taoyuan
By Rich Chang and Jimmy Chuang
STAFF REPORTERS, WITH AGENCIES
Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008, Page 1

The military came under fire from legislators yesterday after it was revealed that dummy soldiers had been used to stand guard at an army base in Taoyuan County.

The storm of criticism came after Chinese-language media reported that an artillery unit had posted dummy soldiers at guard posts at the army’s Sixth Legion Artillery Command Headquarters, located at Tungshih Base in Taoyuan County’s Pingchen Township (平鎮), raising worries over a possible shortage of manpower.

Democratic Progressive Party Legislator Tsai Huang-liang (蔡煌瑯) said the military’s use of dummies to stand guard at a military base was “a joke” and asked whether the army would also send dummies if it had to fight a war.

Tsai said the morale of the military had suffered since President Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九) came into office in May because his polices have focused on China.

In response, the Ministry of National Defense’s Joint Warfare Planning Department director, Hau Yi-chi (郝以知), said yesterday the dummies were part of “decoy tactics” used at the base.

“It is part and parcel of military tactics and it is nothing new. In addition to dummy guards, we also use mock tanks and mock camps to confuse enemies in case they are taking satellite pictures,” Hau said, adding that the military would continue to use dummy guards “irregularly,” albeit only at night.

Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Lin Yu-fang (林郁方) said that if the military wants to use dummies, “it should at least use more realistic ones rather than something that can be instantly recognized as fake.”

Originally Posted by kliu0

I highly doubt that its legitimate. News from China is always "censored to favour the Chinese government", just like Xinhua and CCTV. Who is going to vote for them anyway.....even die hard unificationists vote for the KMT or the New Party. Communism just isn't popular in Taiwan, and with 75% voting in the last election, you can say that the Taiwanese enjoy their democracy.

Sorry for being political. I got nothing more to say.

I doubt anyone is taking this seriously. It's just some dude with a home made flag.

Latest news......finally someone from the US side that is saying that the weapons procurement will go through. See below.

================================================== ===========
Bush will revive arms sales: Wolfowitz
A ‘PRIVATE CITIZEN’: The former deputy secretary of defense expressed confidence that the US leader would honor a commitment he made in 2001 and complete the deal
By Richard Hazeldine
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Jul 24, 2008, Page 1

US-Taiwan Business Council chairman Paul Wolfowitz told a gathering of the American Chamber of Commerce in Taipei yesterday that he believed the administration of US President George W. Bush would recommence arms sales to Taiwan before Bush leaves office in January.

Wolfowitz, a close ally of Bush who served as US deputy secretary of defense from 2001 to 2005 and played a key role in the US invasion of Iraq, said he was confident the arms freeze would be lifted, as the US president had made a commitment in April 2001, and that Bush is “strong on commitments” and “treats commitments as commitments.”

“I believe that the packages will go forward and the US will keep its word,” he said.

Wolfowitz’s comments come against the backdrop of a halt in the processing of weapons sales to Taiwan this year ahead of Bush’s trip to the Olympic Games opening ceremony in Beijing on Aug. 8 and mixed messages from Washington about whether the freeze is official.

Commander of US forces in the Pacific Admiral Timothy Keating told the Heritage Foundation think tank in Washington last Wednesday that the freeze was “administration policy,” while just two days later a State Department official refused to say there was such a policy.

Stressing that he was speaking as a “private citizen” throughout his 45-minute speech, the former World Bank president later questioned Keating’s authoritativeness on the subject, saying he was not a government spokesman.

Commenting on recent cross-strait developments, Wolfowitz said that President Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) three noes policy — no unification, no independence and no use of force — had made a big contribution to peace in the region and put things on the right path.

He said the reduction in tension and increased contact across the Strait would make it easier for Washington to have good relations with both Taiwan and China.

To improve perceptions of Taiwan in the US, Wolfowitz said it was important not to “focus on the past” and that Taiwan should try to increase visits by opinion makers such as academics and politicians.

People of influence with first-hand understanding of Taiwan would help the nation in its quest for increased international space, he said.

Praising Taiwan’s successful transition from dictatorship to democracy, Wolfowitz said that although he was a long-time friend of former Singaporean prime minister Lee Kuan Yew (李光耀), he disagreed with the theory that Asian people do not mind being told what to do by government.

He added that he had been heartened to hear that Chinese people had been “glued to their televisions” waiting for the results of Taiwan’s presidential election in March.

In the long term, he said, he was confident that Taiwan would have a bigger influence on China than vice versa.

The US-Taiwan Business Coun*cil is a non-profit organization established in 1976 to promote trade and business relations between Taiwan and the US and is very active in promoting defense-related trade.

A need for RCWS (Remote Controlled Weapon Station)





The first picture shows ROC Army M113, the 2nd is ROC Navy's new FAC, and 3rd pic shows the T75S 20mm (GAM-B01) cannon that's also installed on the FAC. We can observe that these weapon mounts are manually operated, exposing the crew to enemy fire.

This is one area of development where I think the ROC defense industry can improve on. It can't be THAT hard to develop remote-controlled weapon stations. Here's some specs/requirements for such a system:

* A "light mount" RCWS for 7.62mm MG, or MG + 2 x missiles
* A "medium weight mount" RCWS for 20mm-40mm auto-cannon, or cannon + missiles.
* Land-based vehicle and naval/ship-based variants
* Good stabilization, fire control, day/night operation
* Multi-sensor optoelectronic system
* Operated independently via tracking camera, or slaved to ship's on-board system
* Manually-operated back-up mode in case of system failure

The Israelis have some good RCWS that ROC defense industry could emulate. Here's some examples:

Land vehicle based "light mount" with MG + 2 x ATGM & operator station:



Navy "light mount" version & operator station:




Vehicle "medium weight mount" with 30mm AC + 2 x ATGM:


Navy version with 25mm AC, & 25mm AC + 2 x missiles:



Navy version with 4 x SAM and 12 x decoy launchers:


The French has similar system with 30mm AC & Mistral SAM:


====================

IMO the ROC military should consider developing (or buying/licensing/copying) RWCS systems for upgrading land-based and naval systems. If you're going to build armored vehicles to protect the troops inside, there's no point in sticking a gunner out the hatch and exposing him to enemy fire.

ROC Army vehicles are lacking in ATGM's. A RWCS with couple of ATGM's would provide better firepower against armored opponents and stationary/fortified targets. Even on ships, ATGM's can be placed on smaller boats to increase their firepower beyond couple of MG's.

Taiwan needs heavy SAM defenses along with decent fighters to counter the invading swarms. They only have a few F-16s. Naval defense is almost impossible due to the new CLUB-S/N missiles so is really a waste of money.

IIRC the USA hasn't officially declared they would defend Taiwan?

Taiwan need to defend itself not only from the mainland but from other countries as well. Taiwan also stake a claim in several disputed islands. Take a look at the rescent example of the dispute with the Japanese regarding the diaoyu island.