Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Originally Posted by SampanViking

Or maybe you are describing yesterdays world and this is the wake up call for today, with warm Taiwanese Japanese ties under the DPP deteriorating and being replaced with warmer cross straits relations.

If they are deteriorating it's down to Chinese nationalist politicians beating the drum of war. Their choice but a very stupid one - annoy your friends and then you've got no one to help you if China decides to dictate unreasonable terms.

Today's world is that Japan is still willing to be Taiwan's friend. The question is, does the KMT want to accept that friendship? Better ties with China shouldn't mean worsening relations with other countries.

Are things ever that simple? not really as its a real Ménage à trois with China and Japan reporting being close to completing a deal to settle the East China Sea dispute.

Read the article more carefully - it talks about resources, not sovereignty over the region. A good development though note Taiwan is excluded - China has hardly offered it a place at the negotiating table.

Originally Posted by kliu0

Don't underestimate the Taiwanese military, everywhere in the world people underestimate it. Remember during the 20th century everyone underestimated the Vietcong and other guirella groups? They won.

Yes and those groups would be land forces. A conflict with Japan would be air and sea-based - i.e. technology would play a far greater role.

How about the new Hsiung Feng IIE missiles ? They can hit Shanghai, why not Japan?

Because the Japanese mainland is much further away, that's why. They could hit Okinawa, but given the US bases there that would be very stupid.

The F-16s, IDFs, Mirage 2000Es, F-5s pose a threat to Japan.

Without refuelling aircraft (which Taiwan doesn't have, nor has the US offered) they wouldn't pose a threat because Japan wouldn't attack Taiwan directly.

If Taiwan sends its navy it would definately pose a threat and trouble the MSDF.

If it came to conflict, the MSDF would come out tops. My view which I'm entitled to.

If they are deteriorating it's down to Chinese nationalist politicians beating the drum of war. Their choice but a very stupid one - annoy your friends and then you've got no one to help you if China decides to dictate unreasonable terms.

One can say the same about the Japanese nationalist politicians, if not more so, but as things will most likely demonstrate the pocketbook will speak louder than anything else.

So, it seems Japan has offered a regret/apology & promised compensation to the fishing boat. Adding this to the Taiwanese coast guard escorted flotilla to the disputed waters yesterday, I'd give high marks to the KMT government on handling this. The Taiwanese & Japanese responses above are unprecedented I believe with regard to this issue.

I believe better cross-straits ties played a big part to this, a card the previous DPP government was never able/willing to play with regard to its relationship with Japan.

Published on Taipei Times
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/fron.../16/2003414891

Japan’s representative expresses regret
NOT SATISFIED: Minister of Foreign Affairs Francisco Ou said that although Tokyo had promised to pay damages for a boat collision, Japan still needed to apologize
By Jenny W. Hsu
STAFF REPORTER, WITH CNA
Monday, Jun 16, 2008, Page 1

Five days after the collision between a Taiwanese fishing boat and a Japanese coast guard patrol boat near the Diaoyutai (釣魚台) islands, Japan’s representative to Taiwan expressed Tokyo’s regret over the incident to Ho Hung-yi (何鴻義), the captain of the fishing boat.

Koichi Ito, director-general of the Interchange Association, Japan’s representative office in Taiwan, visited Ho yesterday afternoon at his home in Rueifang Township (瑞芳), Taipei County, with personnel from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Ito said that the patrol boat Koshiki had not rammed Ho’s boat on purpose.

Ito did not use the word “apology” in his statement yesterday. He said, however, that the Japanese Coast Guard would compensate Ho as required by law.

On Tuesday, the day of the accident, Ito said the collision had occurred “in Japan’s territorial waters,” but said “the incident should be handled so as not to influence the positive relations between Tokyo and Taipei.”

APOLOGY WANTED

Minister of Foreign Affairs Francisco Ou (歐鴻鍊) told a press conference yesterday that although Japan had shown its goodwill by releasing the people who were aboard the Taiwanese boat and agreeing to compensate them, “we are not satisfied with Japan’s lack of a formal apology.”

“We will continue to work hard to obtain a formal apology from Japan,” Ou said.

He said the government’s priority was to resolve the incident and protect the rights of the fishermen involved.

“All issues regarding the dispute over the sovereignty [of the Diaoyutais] will be discussed later as we engage in further negotiations with Japan,” he said.

Earlier yesterday, Executive Yuan Secretary-General Hsueh Hsiang-chuan (薛香川) visited Ho and said the government would file a lawsuit in a local court against Japan for detaining Ho for four days.

“We will help Captain Ho, who owns the boat, seek compensation for losses and an apology from the Japanese government,” Hsueh said.

“Since the Diaoyutais are part of the Republic of China’s territory, we will file the suit in Taiwan, on the grounds that the Japanese patrol illegally intruded into the country’s territorial waters,” he said.

TOUGHEN UP

Ho said the government must take a tougher stance and hold a press conference with foreign media “to tell the whole world of Japan’s arrogance.”

“It was entirely their [the Japanese coast guards’] fault. I did nothing wrong ... They rammed their boat into my small fishing boat on purpose. That should count as [attempted] premeditated murder,” Ho said.

Hsueh said he would help Ho obtain an interest-free loan to cover the damages and said the Executive Yuan would increase from three to seven the number of navy patrols protecting the nation’s fishing boats in its territorial waters.

Meanwhile, Representative to Japan Koh Se-kai (許世楷) returned to Taipei last night after the ministry recalled him on Saturday to report on his contact with the Japanese government over the incident.

Ou confirmed yesterday that the recall was a form of diplomatic protest, but said it did not mean that Koh would not return to Japan.

At a meeting with colleagues in Tokyo yesterday, Koh reportedly said that the ministry should “handle the incident rationally,” given that “maintaining good relations with Japan is crucial to Taiwan.”

The Japanese word for “regret” can also mean “apology,” said Koh at a press conference late last night after a 45-minute closed door meeting with Ou.

“In many instances throughout the history, Japan used the word ‘regret’ to express its apology,” he said.

When asked if the ministry would accept such answer, Ou smiled and said: “We can feel Japan’s good will in their response in this matter.”

Koh said that many people in Japan have expressed that they hope the incident will not damage bilateral relations.

Also See: DPP criticizes KMT over recall of envoy
Copyright © 1999-2008 The Taipei Times. All rights reserved.

************************************************** ************************************************
Country bashing remarks removed. Skywatcher will recieve a warning.

Any more such comments and I will issue more warnings and close this thread.

bd popeye super moderator

This is from the ROC Coast Guard web site:

http://www.cga.gov.tw/EN/PUO/PUO_04.asp
"Coastline and area of law enforcement"



=_= Diaoyutai is no where on that map, it looks like they just inserted the text. That's gotta change.

ROC Coast Guard assets:
http://www.cga.gov.tw/EN/CPEF/CPEF_01.asp

Time for some bigger OPV's! ;p

Taiwan needs to toughen up, show the Japanese our military might. Use diplomacy, media and military to shame them into apologising. I mean they rammed our boat, all they say is regret? and they are even pressing charges against the fisherman? Japan has for too long abused their position as an unofficial ally of Taiwan and taking inch by inch of our national sovereignty and dignity. The government should do something, and what about the President who just hides in the Presidential Office, the people of Taiwan voted for a better future and one where our nation can once become strong again. Toughen UP TAIWAN!

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/f...an%2Denvoy.htm

Taiwan envoy says island's policy of procuring arms from U.S. remains unchanged

By DEBBY WU, AP

TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Taiwan's new government will maintain its policy of procuring weapons from the U.S., the island's top envoy in Washington said Tuesday, despite signs of warming ties between Taipei and rival China.

Joseph Wu's comments followed the resumption of formal talks between Taiwan and China last week after a hiatus of almost ten years. The talks produced an agreement on expanded charter flights and tourism between the two sides.

Easing tensions across the 100-mile- (160-kilometer-) wide Taiwan Strait is a major goal of the new administration of Taiwan's President Ma Ying-jeou, who was inaugurated on May 20.

Media reports earlier this month said the U.S. and Taiwan wanted to stall the arms purchases during the talks with China.

While Wu did not discuss the renewed talks with China, he told The Associated Press that the island remained committed to acquiring weapons from the U.S., its main arms supplier.

"Our arms procurement policy remains unchanged," Wu said. "The arms procurement budget that has been approved by the legislature also remains unaffected."

Wu was referring to billions of dollars approved by Taiwanese lawmakers last year to acquire U.S.-made Patriot III missiles and P-3 submarine-hunting aircraft.

He said Washington, like Taipei, remains unchanged in its policy of selling arms to Taiwan.

"Washington now is waiting for the administration in Taipei to offer a new, comprehensive procurement plan that suits its needs the best," he said. "It is incorrect to say that the Bush administration has no intention of selling arms to Taiwan in the remainder of its term."

Washington is required by law to provide Taipei with weapons to defend itself, primarily against communist China.

China and Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949, and Beijing threatens to attack the self-ruling island if it moves to make its de facto independence permanent.

The tense relations between Taipei and Beijing became especially strained in 1999 after former Taiwanese President Lee Teng-hui claimed the island and China are two separate countries.

Lee's successor Chen Shui-bian was even less popular with the Chinese leadership because of his strong support for formal Taiwanese independence.

Originally Posted by kliu0

Taiwan needs to toughen up, show the Japanese our military might. Use diplomacy, media and military to shame them into apologising.

And what if Japan says it has done enough or something happens and the shooting starts? You going to fight Japan? Come off it - the situation needs to calm down, not get more excited.

Originally Posted by Mr T

And what if Japan says it has done enough or something happens and the shooting starts? You going to fight Japan? Come off it - the situation needs to calm down, not get more excited.

Japan hasn't done enough so far, they havn't even issued a full apology and dropped charges against the Taiwanese fisherman. When they do, the situation calms and there will no longer be a need for war. As Premier Liu of the ROC said war is a last resort. If nothing happens, then I say send out the navy near the area showing that we mean business and that an apology must be issued so that war doesn't start. Far as I'm concerned war is a low possibility but with the things going so far, diplomatic channels havn't really worked. Remember I don't have the authority to start a war, President Ma does.

Originally Posted by kliu0

If nothing happens, then I say send out the navy near the area showing that we mean business and that an apology must be issued so that war doesn't start.

And then if Japan decides it doesn't want to take orders from Taiwan and sends its own ships there, then what?

Remember I don't have the authority to start a war, President Ma does.

But as a member of the public you have a voice. And if too many people start jumping up and down it has the potential to bounce politicians into doing something rash.

So far Ma has been sensible - both he and the KMT HQ appear to be pulling back the anti-Japanese lawmakers and have stopped the planned trip to the islands.

The Japanese are extremely cautious when it comes to deploying the JSDF, which is why they funded a large Coast Guard service. As of 2008, I think the Japanese CG fleet has ~500 ships/boats, of which ~100 cutters are >500 ton displacement. Of these, ~30 are PLH class with helicopter and hanger, and ~70 are PL class with helicopter landing deck (but not hangers).

The latest PL class ships carry 40mm cannons and have armored hulls to withstand small arms fire (north Koreans like to shoot first). Although they cannot be considered warships, they're Japan's primary "buffer" against formal military engagement, while enforcing Japan's maritime claims and disputed territories.

While Asian countries are extremely sensitive when it comes to JSDF involvement, the Coast Guard is seen as a law enforcement branch and thus non-confrontational. The Russians, Koreans, & Chinese don't like the Japanese Navy, but will join the Japanese Coast Guard in exercises and training missions. The Japanese Navy Ship visiting China this month is hailed as the "first visit" since end of WW2. But nobody bothered to mention that China had already invited the Japanese CG to visit 3 years ago for joint exercises. And keep in mind that in East China Sea dispute, the first Japanese ships you "bump" into are the CG.

Regardless of the current Diaoyutai dispute, I think Japan's CG strategy has been quite successful. This is something that both China and Taiwan could look at as basis to expand their own CG fleet.

p.s. I invite everyone to read United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, Article 121:

http://www.un.org/depts/los/conventi...clos/part8.htm

3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf.

Listen, The last thing I would want personally in my own opinion is war. I'm sure every diplomatic channel must be streched to gain that apology. WAR is (I say again) a very last resort.

Let's stop the "war" theory now, before it gets all attention seeking and attracts the moderators and before we get all angry at each other for different points of views.

Yea, I took a look at the Taiwan Coast Guard ships, they seem a bit old. Perhaps some new money into the budget to buy new ones with better armor and a 40mm cannon as mentioned above. They should make it more stealthier too, improves the morale and most importantly can catch drug runners better because of their stealth ability. Taiwan really needs some updates in their Navy and Coast Guard.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiw.../18/2003415049

KMT asked for arms freeze: report
‘LAW OF PHYSICS’: The KMT government asked for the freeze in US arms sales to ensure that talks on direct cross-strait flights proceeded smoothly, ‘Defense News’ reported
By Richard HazeldinE
STAFF REPORTER, WITH AP
Wednesday, Jun 18, 2008, Page 3

The Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) government asked the US to halt weapons sales to Taiwan in order to curry favor with Beijing ahead of last week’s cross-strait negotiations, the latest edition of Defense News reported.

The periodical on Monday quoted unnamed sources as saying the temporary freeze had been requested because the new government, worried by a troubled beginning to its term, feared the arms issue could jeopardize a promised deal on direct cross-strait flights and the entry of Chinese tourists — key platforms of President Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) election campaign.

However, experts quoted by Defense News were concerned that the freeze, originally intended for the duration of the cross-strait negotiations, could extend until a new administration is installed in the White House next year.

The magazine quoted Mark Stokes, the Pentagon’s country director for China and Taiwan from 1997 to 2004, as saying: “It’s the law of physics. Once you lose that momentum, it’s nearly impossible to get it back.”

News of the arms freeze, which Defense News broke on Monday last week, caused concern among opposition legislators and Taiwan’s supporters in the US, who believed the US government was trying to placate China ahead of US President George W. Bush’s expected trip to the Beijing Olympics.

But Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) spokesman Cheng Wen-tsang (鄭文燦) said on Friday that the party had discovered the KMT was behind the suspension, and demanded that the government explain to the public why it had abandoned arms procurements.

The freeze affects some US$12 billion in advanced weaponry that military experts say is crucial if Taiwan is to maintain a position of strength in negotiations with China.

Defense News also clarified its earlier report on elements in the US government that want arms sales to Taiwan ended. It quoted an unnamed US government official as saying that officials dubbed as “panda huggers” in the US embassy in Beijing, the US Treasury Department and the US State Department were conspiring to stop arms sales to Taipei independent of the KMT government’s agenda.

The official was quoted as saying the reasons included opening Chinese markets to US firms, sustaining the six-party talks with North Korea and the future private commercial interests of US officials.

Taiwan’s representative in Wa*shington Joseph Wu (吳釗燮) said yesterday there had been no disruption to the arms procurement process and that Taipei would maintain its policy of procuring weapons from the US.

Wu, who is set to be replaced as Taiwan’s envoy, said the government remained committed to acquiring the weapons.

“It is incorrect to say that the Bush administration has no intention of selling arms to Taiwan in the remainder of its term,” he said.

Meanwhile, the DPP yesterday alleged that a top US official visited the Presidential Office after Ma’s inauguration to meet National Security Council Secretary-General Su Chi (蘇起).

Cheng said Su told the official “point blank” that to improve cross-strait relations, arms procurements would have to be suspended.

The DPP said Ma was not present at the meeting.

The head of the party’s Department of International Affairs, Lin Chen-wei (林成蔚), said the Presidential Office should state whether Ma was aware of Su’s actions, and called on Ma to state his position on Su’s strategy.

Peaceful resolution = The best way out of the solution

Taiwan pledges to peacefully resolve boat incident with Japan

TAIPEI (AFP) - Taiwan and Japan pledged Tuesday to calmly resolve a diplomatic row over the sinking of a Taiwanese fishing boat after it collided with a Japanese vessel near disputed islets in the East China Sea.

"The foreign ministry will try to peacefully resolve (the issue) through diplomatic channels," Taiwan's Foreign Minister Francisco Ou told reporters.

Ou made the remarks after a Taiwanese protest boat, escorted by nine patrol ships, entered Japan's territorial waters near the disputed islands early Monday.

Japanese media said it was the first time foreign patrol boats had entered Japanese waters to accompany a protest ship.

The Taiwanese fishing boat sank near the island chain a week ago after colliding with a Japanese patrol vessel. The Japanese vessel rescued all 16 people onboard and sent them back to Taiwan after questioning.

Taiwan's foreign ministry had lodged a strong protest over the incident, demanding an apology and compensation.

But Tokyo said earlier Tuesday it had agreed with Taipei to "handle the issue calmly without getting excited," according to Chief Cabinet Secretary Nobutaka Machimura.

Separately, a group of Taiwanese lawmakers on Tuesday called off a protest voyage scheduled for Wednesday to the disputed island chain, known as Senkaku in Japanese and Diaoyu in Chinese.

"We have decided to suspend the trip as Japan has softened its stance while yesterday's civilian protest effectively pressed Taiwan's sovereignty claims" of the islands, said lawmaker Lin Yu-fang of the ruling Kuomintang.

Japan administers the uninhabited island group, which lies near rich energy deposits, but it is also claimed by Taipei and Beijing.

Taiwan's de facto envoy to Japan, Koh Se-kai, was summoned home over the weekend and said Monday he was resigning amid criticism over how he handled the incident.

The US State Department called Monday on Japan and Taiwan to exercise restraint in the dispute.


http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/f...an%2Dwants.htm

Taiwan wants Tiaoyutai talks

The China Post news staff

President Ma Ying-jeou agreed yesterday with Japanese Premier Yasuo Fukuda on rational, cool-headed handling of the Tiaoyutai crisis but demanded negotiations on fishing rights as well as sovereignty over the disputed islets in the East China Sea.

At a tea reception for the press, President Ma said he supports Fukuda's approach to solve the incident over the disputed waters off the Tiaoyutais, which the Japanese call the Senkakus.

"Both countries," Ma told reporters, "should resort to peaceful and diplomatic means in tackling the issue."

A Taiwan sports fishing boat, the Lien Ho, was rammed into by a Japanese maritime safety frigate on last Tuesday. It sank. A three-man crew and 13 anglers aboard were rescued, but the skipper and the two crew members were questioned at Ishigaki jima as defendants.

In dealing with the crisis that ensued, Ma said, both sides "have shown self-restraint and goodwill." A Japanese maritime safety official expressed regret for the incident he added.

But that is not enough, Ma said. The Japanese press interpreted "regret" as "apology." "They are not the same," the president added.

"On our side, we are trying to treat the issue rationally and cool-headedly," President Ma went on. He referred to his four-point declaration.

The president reaffirmed sovereignty over the Tiaoyutais on Thursday and demanded that the skipper be released and an apology be made. He reiterated Taiwan's strong determination to safeguard the sovereignty of the islets and ordered the National Coast Guard Administration to strengthen its organization and equipment to safeguard the sovereignty and fishing rights. Reparation for the Lien Ho was demanded.

"We are certain," the president said with confidence, "the dispute would be solved peacefully."

What caused the incident was disagreement between Taiwan and Japan on fishing rights and sovereignty over the islets, under whose water lie vast gas and oil reserves waiting to be tapped.

Japan has never agreed to talk about the disputed sovereignty, while negotiations on fishing rights have failed to reach agreement, President Ma continued.

"There must be a change," he said.

Should no change be made, President Ma said, the Lien Ho incident would be endlessly repeated. "Good relations between the two countries would be seriously affected," he pointed out.

Ma urged Japan to resume talks on fishing rights. "This is the task we have to tackle first," he said, "but negotiations are also necessary to solve the dispute over sovereignty."

Taiwan has agreed to forbid its ships to enter waters 12 miles off the Tiaoyutais. Those are now claimed by Japan as its territorial waters.

"We won't provoke any country," Ma said. China, along with Taiwan and Japan, claims sovereignty over the Tiaoyutais.

"But the Tiaoyutais are our territory and our ships have every right of free access," he declared.

"I hope," Ma said, "Japan, in view of its friendly relations with us in the past, will start dialogue on sovereignty over the islets cool-headedly in a peaceful atmosphere."

My spec requirements for new ROC CG Cutters:

* Built locally in TW
* Displacement large enough to not appear small when next to Japan's 1,800 ton CG Cutters.
* Constructed to survive bumps and collisions (see: UK-Iceland Cod Wars)
* Helicopter landing pad (also good for UAV in future)
* Armored hull to withstand small arms fire
* 40mm gun & 20mm gun