Taiwan military news and discussion part II

Today's world is no longer like when Brtis and Francs battled it out in North America, where two groups face off on a large plain, slowly and chivalrously walk towards their enemies with muskets. Today's confrontations all happen in 3D, where missiles, jets, submarines, and tanks makeup a total war. ROCN's four Kidd class ships stand no chance. I understand Jeff's idea of a modernized version. But doesn't matter how modernized it is, it still cannot even stand a wave of 20 ASM cruising towards it at Mach 3.

On top that, ROC Armed Forces don't even know what to do in the case of a real full out mobilization of the mainland counterpart. To this day, it is still called the National Army, a remnant of the old China. It's training, doctrines, and political teachings all trace back to "Big China" days. They are patriotic, might be Taiwan, might be Greater China as a whole. The societal view towards unification always fluctuate with time and political incidents. Armed means is not the only approach to eventual unification. It is much more sociopolitical than most of us would expect.

Taiwan's Role in Air-Sea Battle

U.S. Representative Randy Forbes (R-Va) published an article entitled “America’s Pacific Air-Sea Battle Vision” calling upon Congress to support the Pentagon’s vision for Air-Sea Battle—a concept designed to improve the joint and combined ability of air and naval forces to project power in the face of anti-access and area denial challenges. More specifically, Representative Forbes pointed out that the United States should “work to bring our allies into this effort.” Indeed, in order for the United States to effectively project power in an anti-access, area denial (A2/AD) environment, networked alliances and ad hoc coalition partnerships would be essential in making U.S. power projection in the Asia-Pacific more resilient and responsive to both the internal and external dynamics of the emerging regional security challenges...

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

But those four Kidd Class DDGs are very potent combatants. With the NTU (New Threat Upgrade) and the cooperative engagement capabilities they possess, if a US Burke AEGIS class vessel were in the area and working with them, they would be a very potent force to deal with...and even without the AEGIS support they would be very, very strong.

They were considered the most potent air-defense DDGs in the US inventory until the AEGIS vessels were introduced and they have had significant upgrades since.

Problem is, on the sea, that is really all the ROCN has for area AAW coverage.

On land, their patriot and other AAW batteries are quite capable, and the Patriots have a long range.

How can they be potent when they do not possess VLS, mutiple target engagement is impossible if enemy start to swarm at you with attacker aircraft?? Especially PLAN has many air asset like J-15,Su-30MMK and JH-7A..

Originally Posted by Lion

How can they be potent when they do not possess VLS, mutiple target engagement is impossible if enemy start to swarm at you with attacker aircraft?? Especially PLAN has many air asset like J-15,Su-30MMK and JH-7A..

When compare with the rest of the ROCN surface combatants, it is formidable.

Landing craft debuts in Han Kuang beach drill - Taipei Times



from the Taipei Times today (Apr 20):

The military conducted two drills on beaches in southern Taiwan yesterday, with one of them featuring a newly deployed locally made landing craft for the first time in an exercise, officials said.

...

According to Captain Chao Yuan-hsun (趙元勳), the speedy Ho Yung (合永) utility landing craft, which was delivered to the navy in October, was being deployed in a drill for the first time. Meanwhile, in a second drill, more than 700 troops, mainly reservists, conducted defensive maneuvers against simulated enemy combatants making an amphibious landing off Greater Tainan.

While 14 CM-11 tanks were deployed in the drill, which was open to the public, many people watching on the sidelines said they did not get the feel of a battlefield because no real shots were fired. Asked about the decision to play the sound of gunfire on speakers instead of using weapons, military spokesperson Yang Lin-chuan (楊林川) said the drill had achieved its purpose of testing the armed forces. The issue was also raised by lawmakers from both governing and opposition parties in the Legislature’s Foreign and National Defense Committee in Taipei yesterday. Deputy Minister of National Defense Andrew Yang (楊念祖) said that firing missiles or bullets is not the main purpose of the Han Kuang drills, which are more about examining military strengths and the country’s defense needs.

CM-11's are tiny and their guns are only 105mm. Is it enough to penetrate the front armour of Type 99 and Type 96?

---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 AM ----------

Just researched on this, at 700 meters, able to penetrate 360mm/90° or 105mm/35°. This is pretty shabby against a 3rd generation MBT, probably not even able to penetrate the lighter Type 96.

Originally Posted by CottageLV

CM-11's are tiny and their guns are only 105mm. Is it enough to penetrate the front armour of Type 99 and Type 96?

---------- Post added at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 AM ----------

Just researched on this, at 700 meters, able to penetrate 360mm/90° or 105mm/35°. This is pretty shabby against a 3rd generation MBT, probably not even able to penetrate the lighter Type 96.

ROC tanks will not be used against the new PLA tanks but to engage their infantry landing force on the beach with flechette rounds. The ones that survived PLA fire will then retreat inland to block choke points and act as mobile fire support. Taiwan roads are not strong enough for the type 99 and the PLA will probably use type 96.

Also I don't know why the women have to wear pink helmets during exercises while the men wear normal ones.

Taiwan plans to buy 'four warships from US' - FRANCE 24

Oliver Hazzard Perry frigates..not Ticos..

Taiwan plans to buy 'four warships from US'

AFP - Taiwan plans to purchase four warships from the United States as part of the island's efforts to modernise its forces and offset the perceived military threat from China, local media reported on Sunday.

The defence ministry briefed President Ma Ying-jeou on the proposed arms deal during a meeting last month and is prepared to set aside the budget next year, the United Daily News said, without specifying the cost.

The ministry declined to comment on the report.

If finalised, the arms deal will increase to 12 the total number of such warships owned by Taiwanese navy.

The four Perry-class frigates, separately built in the 1980s and to be retired by the US navy lately, are aimed to replace the Taiwan navy's fleet of eight Knox-class frigates, the daily said.

Ties between Taiwan and its former rival China have improved drastically since Ma Ying-jeou of the China-friendly Kuomintang party became president in 2008 promising to boost trade and tourism links.

Ma was elected for a second term in January.

China however still claims sovereignty over Taiwan, which has governed itself since 1949, and has vowed to get it back -- by force if necessary -- even though the island has ruled itself for more than 60 years.

China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan should the island declare formal independence, prompting Taipei to seek more advanced weapons, largely from the United States.

Originally Posted by Lion

How can they be potent when they do not possess VLS, mutiple target engagement is impossible if enemy start to swarm at you with attacker aircraft?? Especially PLAN has many air asset like J-15,Su-30MMK and JH-7A..

You forget that the Mk26 launcher and NTU system was the backbone of US nuclear cruisers guarding US carrier battle groups during the cold war. Yes, its probably not as good as a late model AEGIS/VLS but its not to be laughed at either. There are crew from non AEGIS CGs and CGNs who swear in exercises with early build AEGIS ships they did as well as that new fangled AEGIS system and in certain scenarios even better.

U.S. Mulls Selling Taiwan F-16s in Letter

Issued to Texas Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) after he lifted his hold on the confirmation of Mark Lippert for Assistant Secretary of Defense for Asian and Pacific Security Affairs, the letter added that Mr. Lippert "will play a lead role as the Administration decides on a near-term course of action on how to address Taiwan's fighter gap, including through the sale to Taiwan of an undetermined number of new U.S.-made fighter aircraft."

Maybe an announcement just in time for the presidential election contest?

Originally Posted by Mr T

U.S. Mulls Selling Taiwan F-16s in Letter



Maybe an announcement just in time for the presidential election contest?

The Mainland might not care too much, because all this money going to the RoCAF means that other defense needs will get short changed.

Originally Posted by Lion

How can they be potent when they do not possess VLS, mutiple target engagement is impossible if enemy start to swarm at you with attacker aircraft?? Especially PLAN has many air asset like J-15,Su-30MMK and JH-7A..

Multiple engagement is possible with these vessels. The NTU and other upgrades ensure that. 1st, they have two twin launchers which can launch effective SM2ER missiles every 3 seconds or so. From each end, meaning really every 1.5 seconds if they coordinate those launchers which they will in a saturation attack.

In addition, they are capable of cooperative engagement with any US AEGIS class vesseel in the area, which means the AEGIS radar can be used to identify targets and then launch the missiles at those targets. The vessels carry up to 80 standard missiles.

Anti-shipping missiles are the real concern, for which this vessel was designed. Enemy aircraft trying to come in close to attack would be much easier targets...they would launch from stand-off distances.

In addition, as a multi-role vessel, they are very powerful. They have two 5" (127mm) guns, two CIWS systems, and carry eight harpoon missiles along with up to two Sea Hawk ASW helos in their hangar.

When in service wuth the US Navy they were deemed "AEGIS-light" vessels at the time because of their capabilities. If two of them are acting tofether, that's a whole lot of effective AAW defense.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Oliver Hazzard Perry frigates..not Ticos..

If they upgrade these Perries like the Aussies are doing and the ROCN plans for its other Perries, they will be effective ASW combatants with a decent close-in AAW defense. If they combine two of them with a couple of their Kidd Class DDGs, they will form a very potent SAG.

I wish the US Navy would retain and upgrade 20 or so of our Perries and add RAM missiles, and the small VLS compartment up front (with eight tubes) that can be quad packed with ESSM, and then add eight cannister launched Harpoon missiles in place of the olf single arm launcher. That's the type of upgrade I bet the ROCN performs, keeping the 76 mm main gun amindships.

Originally Posted by The Diplomat

Tapai Navy to get Stealthy Fast Attack Vessels

The Taipei Times’ J. Michael Cole broke the story this weekend that Taiwan’s Legislative Yuan has levied funds to field a squadron of between seven and eleven stealthy Hsun Hai (Swift Sea) fast patrol boats by 2014.

Computer generated images depict a sleek catamaran that resembles a smaller sibling of USS Independence, a variant of the U.S. Navy’s new Littoral Combat Ship. Each new craft will reportedly displace around 500 tons while sporting eight domestically manufactured Hsiung Feng-II and -III antiship cruise missiles.

To all appearances, the Hsun Hai constitutes a marked improvement over the ungainly Kuang Hua VI fast attack craft currently serving in the Republic of China Navy (ROCN). It packs twice the wallop of the Kuang Hua VI. It appears more stealthy, with fewer sharp angles and protuberances to attract unwanted attention from Chinese radars. And with its catamaran hull and low profile, the new man-of-war should be able to handle rough seas in the Taiwan Strait and elsewhere rather than bobbing around like a top.

The plan for a Hsun Hai squadron looks like a good start.

READ MORE HERE

These vessels, with their strong anti-surface capability, if they are capable of cooperative engagement, or if they are simply used in a SAG with any of the ROCN major combatants, will provide a more effective defense for the ROCN in the straights.

ROCN Kang Ding Class FFG (6 vessels in service)


ROCN Cheng Kung FFG (8 + 6 vessels)


ROCN Kee Lung DDG (4 vessels in service)

Jeff..There have been several times in the past when the ROC was planning to do this or that.. for instance buy diesel subs from the US and numerous other purchases that have not come through.

However this being an indigenous program it may actually come to fruition..

I'm going to merge this thread with the Taiwan military news thread

bd popeye super moderator