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Syrian Crisis...2013

This is a discussion on Syrian Crisis...2013 within the World Armed Forces forums, part of the World Strategic Defence Area category; Originally Posted by asif iqbal The rebels will be much much worse than Assad believe me But what do we ...

  1. #1
    plawolf's Avatar
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    Arrow Syrian Crisis...2013

    Quote Originally Posted by asif iqbal View Post
    The rebels will be much much worse than Assad believe me

    But what do we do, let this innocent people get killed, this is unacceptable either way

    This can't continue both sides are wrong, I think Turkey should just go in and wipe out both party's and if they need back up they can call on PAF to get involved in the air campaign, I say nuke both party's and let the Syrian people decided what they want to do with thier country, the killing of innocent people is unacceptable
    Unless Turkey goes in and put everyone to the sword, the sectarian killings won't stop even if the Turks take over the country, just like how the American occupation did diddly squat to stop sectarian killings in Iraq.

    Both Assad and the rebels have popular support from different elements of the Syrian population, and both sides are guilty of promoting sectarian violence and hatred as a means of security the loyalty of their supporters. For many if not most of the people fighting and dying in Syria, the conflict is not about who rules over the rubble and ashes but rather one of survival.

    If Turkey goes in, just like the Americans in Iraq, the they will get caught in the crossfire and also becoming a common enemy for both sides and will take heavy casualties with no end in sight. Turkey would have to be stupid or mad to want to actively get bogged down in that unholy mess.

    The big problems with playing the sectarian hatred card are that things get nasty and ugly real fast, and trying to get people to stop the ethnic killings even after the war is going to be next to impossible. The only two ways such blood feuds have been resolved in the past is if one side completely ethnically cleanses the country of the other side, or if the country is carved up along ethnic or religious lines.

    With the pain and humiliation if Iraq fresh in the minds of its military, I don't think America is at all keen about getting involved in all that again in Syria, and as Iraq proved, even with American boots on the ground, there is little guarantee that the sectarian killings will stop. Turkey is welcome to try their luck, but I seriously doubt they will have much more luck than the Americans did in Iraq. Turkey can go in and it will scarcely make much difference to the body count other than drive it up.

    You cannot get two sides hell bent on slaughtering each other to stop if they don't want to, and if you try, you will only succeed in making both sides hell bent on killing you so they can get back to slaughtering each other.

    The Syrian conflict will drag on send innocents on both sides will continue to die horribly until either one side wins outright, or both sides batter themselves so bloody they loose interest in continuing to fight. But we are still s long way off from either of those points.
    Last edited by bd popeye; 08-31-2013 at 02:40 PM.

  2. #2
    asif iqbal's Avatar
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Quote Originally Posted by plawolf View Post
    Unless Turkey goes in and put everyone to the sword, the sectarian killings won't stop even if the Turks take over the country, just like how the American occupation did diddly squat to stop sectarian killings in Iraq.

    Both Assad and the rebels have popular support from different elements of the Syrian population, and both sides are guilty of promoting sectarian violence and hatred as a means of security the loyalty of their supporters. For many if not most of the people fighting and dying in Syria, the conflict is not about who rules over the rubble and ashes but rather one of survival.

    If Turkey goes in, just like the Americans in Iraq, the they will get caught in the crossfire and also becoming a common enemy for both sides and will take heavy casualties with no end in sight. Turkey would have to be stupid or mad to want to actively get bogged down in that unholy mess.

    The big problems with playing the sectarian hatred card are that things get nasty and ugly real fast, and trying to get people to stop the ethnic killings even after the war is going to be next to impossible. The only two ways such blood feuds have been resolved in the past is if one side completely ethnically cleanses the country of the other side, or if the country is carved up along ethnic or religious lines.

    With the pain and humiliation if Iraq fresh in the minds of its military, I don't think America is at all keen about getting involved in all that again in Syria, and as Iraq proved, even with American boots on the ground, there is little guarantee that the sectarian killings will stop. Turkey is welcome to try their luck, but I seriously doubt they will have much more luck than the Americans did in Iraq. Turkey can go in and it will scarcely make much difference to the body count other than drive it up.

    You cannot get two sides hell bent on slaughtering each other to stop if they don't want to, and if you try, you will only succeed in making both sides hell bent on killing you so they can get back to slaughtering each other.

    The Syrian conflict will drag on send innocents on both sides will continue to die horribly until either one side wins outright, or both sides batter themselves so bloody they loose interest in continuing to fight. But we are still s long way off from either of those points.
    Guess thats just human nature in the end, Europeans spent first half of the 20th century killing each other and the second half planning to kill each other

    It's time now for the the Middleast I guess, although it's slower it is span over a longer time scale, shame, takes years to create a civilisation but just a few short moments to destroy one

    I think things will get a lot worse before they get better

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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Head View Post
    I tend to agree, especially after looking at the videos.

    They are just too orderly laid out, and without the types of effects on their bodies you would expect to see, and no one there seems to have any worry about any residual toxins...whatsoever.

    I believe the rebels are getting desperate and want Uncle Sam to come in. Sadly, Obama may go along with the ruse to deflect attention away from his horrible policies in Egypt and Libya. I hope he does not, but I would not be surprised. It would be a conflict the US does not want or need at all.

    The people fighting Assad (many of them at least) would be worse enemies to the US and far more unstable in the region than Assad's regime.
    Check out this documentary at 0:32, notice the how the body of the man is positioned, that is the hallmark of an instant kill from nerve agents, look at the color of the hand as well. further into the documentary former iranian soldiers described the "frozen" look of the men he encountered.

    History of Modern Iran: Rogue State | BBC Documentary - YouTube

    Edit: Want to make a second unrelated point that is included in that documentary:

    Watch from 51 minutes, the taliban killed 9 Iranian diplomats in Mazar-e Sharif and Iran had begun to mobilize forces on the border with Afghanistan for an invasion. They however decided to go to the UN for support because they knew it would lead to a war that would last for years...Well US should have taken note on that. It also kills the statement that Iran actively supports the Taliban in the current war in Afghanistan.

    Found an old CNN article on the killing and the war that almost happened, 1998... http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9....02/index.html
    Last edited by kalel17; 08-22-2013 at 07:27 PM.

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    bd popeye's Avatar
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    News about the situation in Egypt, Syria etc is in the news everyday in the US...in case any of our members are unaware of this..

    US forces move closer to Syria as options weighed

    BRADLEY KLAPPER and ROBERT BURNS 36 minutes ago Politics & GovernmentBarack ObamaSyriaChemical weapon

    WASHINGTON (AP) U.S. naval forces are moving closer to Syria as President Barack Obama considers military options for responding to the alleged use of chemical weapons by the Assad government. The president emphasized that a quick intervention in the Syrian civil war was problematic, given the international considerations that should precede a military strike.

    The White House said the president would meet Saturday with his national security team to consider possible next steps by the United States. Officials say once the facts are clear, Obama will make a decision about how to proceed.

    Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel declined to discuss any specific force movements while saying that Obama had asked the Pentagon to prepare military options for Syria. U.S. defense officials told The Associated Press that the Navy had sent a fourth warship armed with ballistic missiles into the eastern Mediterranean Sea but without immediate orders for any missile launch into Syria.

    U.S. Navy ships are capable of a variety of military action, including launching Tomahawk cruise missiles, as they did against Libya in 2011 as part of an international action that led to the overthrow of the Libyan government.

    "The Defense Department has a responsibility to provide the president with options for contingencies, and that requires positioning our forces, positioning our assets, to be able to carry out different options whatever options the president might choose," Hagel told reporters traveling with him to Asia.
    View gallery."

    Hagel said the U.S. is coordinating with the international community to determine "what exactly did happen" near Damascus earlier this week. According to reports, a chemical attack in a suburb of the capital killed at least 100 people. It would be the most heinous use of chemical weapons since Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein gassed thousands of Kurds in the town of Halabja in 1988.

    Hagel left little doubt that he thinks the attack in Syria involved chemical weapons, although he stressed there is not yet a final answer. In discussing the matter, he said, "it appears to be what happened use of chemical weapons."

    The United Nations disarmament chief, Angela Kane, arrived in Damascus on Saturday to press the Syrian government to allow U.N. experts to investigate the alleged chemical attacks.

    Obama remained cautious about getting involved in a war that has killed more than 100,000 people and now includes Hezbollah and al-Qaida. He made no mention of the "red line" of chemical weapons use that he marked out for Syrian President Bashar Assad a year ago and that U.S. intelligence says has been breached at least on a small scale several times since.

    "If the U.S. goes in and attacks another country without a U.N. mandate and without clear evidence that can be presented, then there are questions in terms of whether international law supports it do we have the coalition to make it work?" Obama said Friday. "Those are considerations that we have to take into account."
    View gallery."

    Obama conceded in an interview on CNN's "New Day" program that the episode is a "big event of grave concern" that requires American attention. He said any large-scale chemical weapons usage would affect "core national interests" of the United States and its allies. But nothing he said signaled a shift toward U.S. action.

    U.S. defense officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss ship movements publicly. But if the U.S. wants to send a message to Assad, the most likely military action would be a Tomahawk missile strike, launched from a ship in the Mediterranean.

    For a year now, Obama has threatened to punish Assad's regime if it resorted to its chemical weapons arsenal, among the world's vastest, saying use or even deployment of such weapons of mass destruction constituted a "red line" for him. A U.S. intelligence assessment concluded in June chemical weapons have been used in Syria's civil war, but Washington has taken no military action against Assad's forces.

    U.S. officials have instead focused on trying to organize a peace conference between the government and opposition. Obama has authorized weapons deliveries to rebel groups, but none are believed to have been sent so far.

    In his first comments on Syria since the alleged chemical attack, Obama said the U.S. is still trying to find out what happened. Hagel said Friday that a determination on the chemical attack should be made swiftly because "there may be another attack coming," although he added that "we don't know" whether that will happen.
    View gallery."

    After rebels similarly reported chemical attacks in February, U.S. confirmation took more than four months. In this instance, a U.N. chemical weapons team is already on the ground in Syria. Assad's government, then as now, has rejected the claims as baseless.

    Obama also cited the need for the U.S. to be part of a coalition in dealing with Syria. America's ability by itself to solve the Arab country's sectarian fighting is "overstated," he said.

    AP National Security Writer Robert Burns was traveling with Hagel. AP writers Josh Lederman and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.
    I do not like this at all..
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    Chinese Daily Photos, Videos & News of 2013!!!

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  5. #5
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    In the last few days and hours 4 USN Arleigh Burkes have been stationed near the coast or close to Syria they are

    USS Mahan DDG-72
    USS Barry DDG-52
    USS Ramage DDG-61
    And USS Gravely DDG-107

    All are carrying Tomahawks, USS Mahan has completed its routine deployment but is going to stay out there until further notice

    Also US air assets in Turkey and Jordan are on a extended readiness, I think the militray is waiting for the go ahead call they are ready to strike I think

    In addition US special opps who did recent excercises in Jordan are being told they could expect to be called on soon

  6. #6
    asif iqbal's Avatar
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Just thinking if those Syrian Yakhonts are accounted for, before any attack begins they need to neutralise those anti-ship missiles, if Syrian coastal defences get a few of them off and they target USN ships the situation will escalate

    However I believe the Israeli air force has taken care of that job, the US intel is more than likely on the job, also there is the Panistar Missile system too

    Actually there is maybe half a dozen weapons systems in the Assads arsenal that are a threat any outside interference, all modern Russian systems delivered in the last few years

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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Quote Originally Posted by bd popeye View Post
    News about the situation in Egypt, Syria etc is in the news everyday in the US...in case any of our members are unaware of this..

    US forces move closer to Syria as options weighed



    I do not like this at all..
    Me either, popeye.

    I do not believe, on seeing the pics of the so-called "Chemical Attack," that it was a general attack by Syria against its people in that area near Damascus at all. It looks far more possible like a false flag, and may now be used to conduct a "Wag the Dog," war by the US against Syria.

    It is a huge mistake and one I do not believe the US people want, or have any desire whatsoever for.

    I do believe, if it happens, that it would be a wretched misdirection by the Obama admin to deflect attention away from their many other failures and scandals...and it makes me sick to my stomach that our young people may be used in this manner.

    I pray we do not do this.

    We can but watch and see what happens, while burning up the phone, fax and email lines to our congress critters and senators.
    Last edited by Jeff Head; 08-24-2013 at 11:06 AM.

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    Franklin is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    It seems that president Obama and the generals at the Pentagon are very reluctent to get involved in the conflict in Syria. Any action that may come will most likely be very limited. Perhabs a few cruise missile strikes. But it seems that the congress and the senate and some of America's allies in Europe and the region are pushing for a much tougher response and wants a repeat of the Libya exercise. The way that the media is portraying things in Syria doesn't help either. So far the troop movement has been very limited just four destroyers and there are a few F-16's in Jordan left from a exercise earlier this year.

    On Syria, Obama says no rush toward costly interventions

    President Barack Obama called the apparent gassing of hundreds of Syrian civilians a "big event of grave concern" but stressed on Friday he was in no rush to embroil Americans in a costly new war.

    As opponents of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad braved the frontlines around Damascus to smuggle out tissue samples from victims of Wednesday's mass poisoning, Obama brushed over an interviewer's reminder that he once called chemical weapons a "red line" that could trigger U.S. action.

    A White House spokesman reiterated Obama's position that he did not expect to have "boots on the ground" in Syria.

    Obama's caution contrasted with calls for action from NATO allies, including France, Britain and Turkey, where leaders saw little doubt Assad's forces had staged pre-dawn missile strikes that rebels say killed between 500 and well over 1,000 people.

    But two years into a civil war that has divided the Middle East along sectarian lines, a split between Western governments and Russia once again illustrated the international deadlock that has thwarted outside efforts to halt the killing.

    While the West accused Assad of a cover-up by preventing the U.N. team from visiting the scene, Moscow said the rebels were impeding an investigation.

    The United Nations released data showing that a million children were among refugees forced to flee Syria, calling it a "shameful milestone". And mosque bombings that left at least 42 dead and hundreds wounded in neighboring Lebanon were a reminder of how Syria's conflict has spread. But, for now, there seems little prospect of an end to the violence.

    According to U.S. and European security sources, U.S. and allied intelligence agencies have made a preliminary assessment that Syrian government forces did use chemical weapons in the attack this week and that the act likely had high-level approval from President Bashar al-Assad's government.

    Obama played down the chances of Assad cooperating with the U.N. experts who might provide conclusive evidence of what happened, if given access soon.

    Noting budget constraints, problems of international law and a continuing U.S. casualty toll in Afghanistan, Obama told CNN:

    "Sometimes what we've seen is that folks will call for immediate action, jumping into stuff that does not turn out well, gets us mired in very difficult situations, can result in us being drawn into very expensive, difficult, costly interventions that actually breed more resentment in the region.

    "The United States continues to be the one country that people expect can do more than just simply protect their borders. But that does not mean that we have to get involved with everything immediately," he said, reflecting long-standing wariness to follow the example of his predecessor, George W. Bush, and his ultimately unpopular ventures in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    "We have to think through strategically what's going to be in our long-term national interests."


    RED LINE?

    Asked about his comment - made a year and a day before the toxic fumes hit sleeping residents of rebel-held Damascus suburbs - that chemical weapons would be a 'red line' for the United States, he replied: "If the U.S. goes in and attacks another country without a U.N. mandate and without clear evidence that can be presented, then there are questions in terms of whether international law supports it."

    Russia and China have vetoed United Nations Security Council moves against Assad in the past and oppose military action.

    Having abstained to allow NATO powers a U.N. mandate to back Libyan rebels against Muammar Gaddafi in 2011, Moscow and Beijing have closed ranks against what they see as a desire by Western states to change other countries' systems of government.

    The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, despite a failure to secure a specific U.N. mandate for it, led to long wrangling over whether Washington and its allies broke international law.

    In June, Washington agreed in response to evidence of small chemical attacks to arm rebel groups, despite misgivings about Islamist radicals in their ranks, some allied with al Qaeda. But rebel leaders say it is too little, leaving only a stalemate.

    INSPECTION TEAM

    International powers, including Moscow, have urged Assad to cooperate with the U.N. inspection team which arrived on Sunday to pursue earlier allegations of chemical weapons attacks.

    However, there was no public response from the Syrian government, whose forces have been pounding the region for days, making any mission by the international experts perilous - as well as possibly destroying evidence. Syria denies being responsible and has in the past accused rebels of using gas.

    U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he intends to conduct a "thorough, impartial and prompt investigation" into the latest allegations. Top U.N. disarmament official Angela Kane was due to arrive in Damascus on Saturday to push for access to the site for the U.N. inspectors.

    "I can think of no good reason why any party - either government or opposition forces - would decline this opportunity to get to the truth of the matter," Ban said.

    British Foreign Secretary William Hague said he believed the Syrian government was responsible for the casualties, which go on rising as medical staff and others fall sick. "It seems the Assad regime has something to hide," he said.

    "Why else have they not allowed the U.N. team to go there?" he added, saying that the attack was "not something that a humane and civilized world" could ignore.

    But Russia, Assad's main arms supplier, said the opposition was preventing the objective investigation of what happened.

    In an apparent rebuttal of that, Syria's opposition pledged to guarantee the safety of U.N. inspectors.

    "We will ensure the safety of the U.N. team ... It is critical that those inspectors get there within 48 hours," Khaled Saleh, spokesman for the opposition Syrian National Coalition, told a news conference in Istanbul.

    Opposition activists said they had been in contact with the specialist U.N. team in Damascus and had sent tissue samples with couriers trying to slip across from the Ghouta region into the government-held center to deliver them to the inspectors.

    Speaking from the town of Arbin, one of those affected by mysterious deaths from poisoning, opposition activist Abu Nidal told Reuters: "The U.N. team spoke with us and since then we prepared for them samples of hair, skin and blood and smuggled them back into Damascus with trusted couriers."

    Activist Abu Mohammed, in Harasta, said: "We're being shelled and on top of that Ghouta is surrounded by regime checkpoints. But even that isn't a problem - we can smuggle them out. The problem is the location of the U.N. committee in the hotel. They're under heavy guard and government minders."

    Another opposition leader, Syrian National Coalition Secretary General Badr Jamous, said in Istanbul that samples from victims had already been smuggled out of Syria for testing. He declined to say where they were sent.

    The rebels' efforts could prove futile; only material that has a clear provenance and a "chain of custody" would generally be treated as evidence by U.N. inspectors.

    The longer the team waits for permission to investigate, the less likely it is to get to the bottom of an incident in which opponents say Syrian government forces fired rockets or missiles laden with poison gas canisters into rebel-held neighborhoods.

    Western experts suspect an organophosphate agent, most likely sarin gas, was used in the attack.

    "Because they are non-persistent agents, they dissipate very quickly," said Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, a former head of Britain's military counter-nuclear, biological and chemical warfare force and now a private contractor.

    Images, including some by freelance photographers supplied to Reuters, showed scores of bodies laid out on floors with no visible signs of injury. Some had foam at the nose and mouth.

    CALLS FOR ACTION

    French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Thursday that world powers must respond with force if allegations that Syria's government was responsible for the deadliest chemical attack on civilians in a quarter-century prove true. Fabius stressed, however, there was no question of sending in troops.

    European officials said that options ranging from air strikes or a no-fly zone to providing heavy weapons to some rebels were all still on the table. But there was little prospect of concrete measures without U.S. backing. "Without U.S. firepower, there's little we can do," one said.

    Turkey, fearful of instability on its long southern border, called for an end to talk and time-wasting. "There is nothing left to say now," said President Abdullah Gul. "It is now time for actual concrete action ... The price of playing down the events and procrastinating through diplomatic maneuvering and trickery in the U.N. Security Council will be very high."
    On Syria, Obama says no rush toward costly interventions

  9. #9
    Franklin is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    What remains unmentioned in this whole affair is that the last time chemical weapons were used in Syria. There was a international panel set up to investigate the claims headed by the former chief prosecutor of the ex-Yugoslavia tribunal in The Hague Carla Del Ponte. She and her team ended up blaming the rebels for the chemical attack and the whole affair led a silent death and wasn't talked about anymore. Stronger then that this was the period that the Obama people began the policy of arming the rebels. Now there is a new and much bigger chemical attack in Syria and without any evidence the Western and Gulf leaders and the media is already starting to blame the al-Assad government and warships are being send to the Syrian coast. What is then the message to the rest of the world ? That its OK to use chemical weapons as long as we like you and consider you as one of the good guys ? We also need to ask the question that if the rebels are people who are willing to use chemical weapons against innocent civilians just so they can blame it on the government in order to trigger a military intervention, then are these the kind of people that we want to hand Syria over to ? Are these the kind of people that we want to call our allies and friends ? These are not people that have a very high moral standing. There are not enough questions being asked about what will happen in Syria the day after al-Assad is gone and who are the people that we are supporting to replace him.

    Last edited by Franklin; 08-26-2013 at 10:34 AM.

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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    It seems that we are heading towards war against Syria. The first article is about the Syrians accepting a UN investigation over the chemical attack, but is rejected as too little and too late by the US and its allies. The second article is about how the US, UK and France is ready to attack Syria in two weeks.

    Syrian offer on UN team 'too little, too late' | World news | The Guardian

    Syria: Britain and US pledge to use force against Assad's forces within two weeks - Middle East - World - The Independent

  11. #11
    asif iqbal's Avatar
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    A Royal Navy Trafalgar Class SSN is one it's way to the Mediterranean, it is there to provide Tomahawk cover

    That doesn't mean it will engage in military action but it's likely as in Libya RN SSN fired off tomahawks at Gaddafi targets

    The aim here is to hit all major military installations to paralyse Assads forces then allow rebels on push on

    What happens after that is anyone's guess

  12. #12
    asif iqbal's Avatar
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    It's is also reported that strike on Al Nusrat and other terror organisations working inside Syria against the regime will be targeted too

    These will be in and round the rural areas around Aleppo but at the same time targe Assads radar, air defence and chemical weapons sites

    The strikes will be such so the military balance is not changed

  13. #13
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    SampanViking is offline The Capitalist
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Is the Admiral Kuznetsov still cruising in the East Med?
    I know its deployment was announced on June, but I have heard nothing since.
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    hardware is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    be careful what you wish,if assad collapse,then chapter-2 will be Iraq,iraqi jihadist fought in Syria going to return to Iraq to spread havoc.
    according to the report Qatar government was sponsor of radical jihadist.they don't care if they are FSA or al queda, so long they going after assad army.
    I suspect the recent rush of terror bombing in Iraq may have outside support,namely saude and Qatar government.wikileak shown saude strong contempt for Iraq government.

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    Re: Persian Gulf & Middle East News & Views

    Quote Originally Posted by hardware View Post
    ther arab spring breed Illiberal democracies.for the islamist they decided they can sieze power from the front door thru ballot box..this problem is not just a problem in the middle east,but also in europe.you simple look what happen in france,Uk and germany.
    historically and culturally,most muslim has tremendous hostility to any western value such as human right .free thinker and democracy.any attempt to impose this western ideology will bound to end in failure or catastrophy.in the middle east,intellectual ,particular the secular voice were often target for murder.
    or you can observe the post saddam iraq,US policy was a failure.
    We had the same problem in The Netherlands till about forty years ago. Several Christian parties representing even more sects held more than half of the seats in parliament. Until 1958 a female civil servant was automatically fired when she married.
    Quite a few Muslims are in Dutch politics - the mayor of Rotterdam is a Muslim who was born in Morocco - but extremism among them is not a problem, not at all.

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