Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

Heard that it was either downed by AA gun or MANPAD since the jet is flying at low altitude.

BBC News - Turkish warplane downed by Syria 'may have crossed border'

Turkey's President, Abdullah Gul, has said the Turkish fighter jet shot down by Syria's air defence forces on Friday may have violated Syrian airspace.

Mr Gul said it was routine for warplanes flying at high speed to cross borders for short distances.

Syria has said it engaged the aircraft in its airspace "according to the laws that govern such situations", and that it crashed into the Mediterranean Sea.

The Turkish and Syrian navies are searching for the two crew members.

Relations between Nato-member Turkey and Syria, once close allies, have deteriorated sharply since the uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011. More than 30,000 Syrian refugees have fled the violence across the border into Turkey.

After a cross-border shooting by Syrian security forces in April that left two refugees dead at a camp near the town of Kilis, Turkey said it would not tolerate any action that it deemed violating its security.

On Saturday, President Gul said the Turkish government could not ignore the fact that Syria had shot down a Turkish aircraft.

"It is not possible to cover over a thing like this, whatever is necessary will be done," he was quoted as saying by state news agency, Anatolia.

"It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders... when you consider their speed over the sea," he added.

"These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets' speed."

Mr Gul said an investigation would look at whether the plane had been shot down in Turkish airspace, and also revealed that Ankara had been in contact with Damascus despite both countries declaring each other's diplomats unwelcome earlier this year.

"We withdrew our envoy from Syria for security reasons. This does not mean that we have no contacts," he explained.

Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc later said the jet had been on a reconnaissance mission, state television reported.

Despite public anger over the suffering of civilians in Syria, Ankara has been very reluctant to consider military intervention, our correspondent says.

It will not rush into a military response to this incident either, he adds.

Diplomatic relations between Turkey and Syria have been downgraded to their lowest possible level without completely breaking them.

But the speed with which the coastguards of the two countries organized a joint search-and-rescue operation for the two missing crew members from the plane suggests there are still avenues of communication between their military forces, our correspondent adds.

'Unidentified target'

The Turkish military said it lost radio contact with the F-4 Phantom at 11:58 (08:58 GMT) on Friday while it was flying over Hatay province, about 90 minutes after it took off from Erhac airbase in the province of Malatya, to the north-west.

Alleged flightpath of downed Turkish F-4 Phantom



1. F-4 Phantom takes off from Erhac airbase, Turkey, at approximately 10:28 local time (07:28 GMT), on 22 June

2. Syria says the jet enters its airspace at 11:40 (08:40 GMT)

3. Turkish military loses contact with the plane at 11:58 (08:58 GMT), while it is over Hatay province

4. Syria says its air defences engaged aircraft about 1km (0.6 miles) from the coast and that it crashed into the sea 10km (6 miles) west of Om al-Tuyour

Later, the Syrian military said an "unidentified air target" had penetrated Syrian airspace from the west at 11:40 local time (08:40 GMT), travelling at very low altitude and at high speed.

It said that in line with the laws prevailing in such cases, Syrian air defences engaged the craft, and scored a direct hit about 1km (0.6 miles) from its coastline.

It burst into flames, and crashed into the sea at a point 10km (6 miles) from the village of Om al-Tuyour, off the coast of Latakia province, well within Syrian territorial waters, the statement added.

Syrian television showed a map charting the aircraft's movements, coming in from over the sea near northern Cyprus.

The military statement said that after it "became clear the target was a Turkish military plane which had entered our airspace", the naval commands of the two countries were in touch, and a joint operation was going on to find the missing crew members.

Didn't realize until now that Saudi Arabla is financing the rebellion in Syria

The Hindu : News / International : Turkey avoids jingoism over shooting down of its warplane in Syria

The shooting of a Turkish warplane threatened, on Saturday, to escalate the Syrian conflict at a time when a proposal to include Iran in a fresh round of diplomacy was encountering stiff resistance among regional countries who seemed more inclined to pursue a military option to resolve the crisis.



On Saturday, Turkey’s President Abdullah Gul acknowledged that a two-seater F-4 Phantom jet might have strayed into Syrian air space and was subsequently shot down. But he stressed that the fighter-jet was not on a mission to breach Syrian airspace — a comment that steered clear of jingoism and seemed to signal that Ankara wished to avoid a flare-up over the incident.



“It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders... when you consider their speed over the sea,” Mr. Gul observed. “These are not ill-intentioned things but happen beyond control due to the jets’ speed.” A statement on Friday from the office of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said: “Turkey, after the incident, is fully enlightened, will lay forward its attitude and take necessary steps.”



The measured response could be attributed to the likelihood of a full-scale conflict involving regional and extra-regional players. Analysts pointed out that Turkey is a NATO member and its engagement in war with Syria could drag the entire western military alliance into an armed conflict.



Hoshyar Zebari, Foreign Minister of Iraq, Turkey’s neighbour, sounded the alarm when he said on Saturday that downing of the Turkish plane marked “ a serious escalation and [is an] indication that the conflict would have [a] far bigger impact than [on] Syria itself.”. Unsurprisingly, U.N. Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon counselled both sides to exercise restraint.



The timing of the shooting seemed particularly inopportune as diplomacy over Syria appeared to be floundering. The U.N. and Arab League envoy, Kofi Annan’s recent move to involve Iran for defusing the crisis is encountering a stiff resistance from the West and its Gulf allies.



In Geneva, Mr. Annan said, during a press conference with Robert Mood (head of the U.N.’s monitoring mission in Syria) Iran’s inclusion in talks would be necessary if a peaceful solution was to be found. Mr. Annan said he wished to convene a meeting of the Syria “contact group” in Geneva on June 30.



“I have made it quite clear that I believe Iran should be part of the solution,” he said. He warned, “If we continue the way we are going and competing with each other, it could lead to destructive competition and everyone will pay the price.”



Mr. Annan said it was “time for countries of influence to raise the level of pressure on the parties on the ground.”



Syria is Iran’s key regional ally and a “regime change” will greatly undermine Tehran’s influence in the Levant.



Despite Mr. Annan’s advocacy for a diplomatic offensive, some Arab Gulf countries, backed by the West, seemed more inclined to focus on the military track. The Guardian reported that Saudi Arabia had agreed to pay salaries to members of the opposition Free Syria Army, to encourage defections and increase pressure on the regime of Syrian President Bashar Al Assad. The daily added that senior officials from the U.S. and Arab world have discussed this move with Riyadh.

Erdogan would have probably ordered some sort of retaliation had the Turkish F-4 not been on some reconnaissance mission and shot down in Syrian airspace.

After last week's defection of a Syrian pilot, Turkey only has herself to blame for sending in a military aircraft to violate the airspace of a country in full civil war. At least we know is still quite capable of shooting down aircrafts flying at low attitudes.

Reports said that the fighter jet was shot down by AA gun. I'm interested to know what type of radar and AA gun Syrian air defense force had used to detect brought down the F-4 Phantom.

This has been very interesting.

Clearly the F4 was somewhere it should not have been and presumably therefore doing something it should not have been doing.

I have been looking at this from the perspective of it being a NATO warplane, meaning a aircraft configured to at least the minimum NATO operating standard.

We also have the changing of the story from the Turkish side since Friday from the Plane flying routine patrol to flying a reconnaissance mission, which is a fairly substantial difference. Recon after all, is something you do on other peoples territory, "to gain information about the enemy", a phrase which in this day and age has a significant range of meanings.

If I had to make a guess, I would say that the F4 was testing ECM/Suppression on Syrian Air Defences and given that we would be talking NATO stand ECM, that the detection and downing of the aircraft will have come as a very nasty surprise across the alliance.

One question I keep asking though and to which there appears no mention of, let alone an answer is; what happened to the other plane?

Originally Posted by SampanViking

This has been very interesting.

Clearly the F4 was somewhere it should not have been and presumably therefore doing something it should not have been doing.

I have been looking at this from the perspective of it being a NATO warplane, meaning a aircraft configured to at least the minimum NATO operating standard.

We also have the changing of the story from the Turkish side since Friday from the Plane flying routine patrol to flying a reconnaissance mission, which is a fairly substantial difference. Recon after all, is something you do on other peoples territory, "to gain information about the enemy", a phrase which in this day and age has a significant range of meanings.

If I had to make a guess, I would say that the F4 was testing ECM/Suppression on Syrian Air Defences and given that we would be talking NATO stand ECM, that the detection and downing of the aircraft will have come as a very nasty surprise across the alliance.

One question I keep asking though and to which there appears no mention of, let alone an answer is; what happened to the other plane?

Depending on further actions, it could lead to NATO military intervention into Syria...if their intention is to use the oldest excuse in the book to spark a war.

A worthy development, but I won't hold my breath just yet.

Turkey claims jet shootdown over international airspace.

Turkish jet 'downed by Syria in international airspace'

Turkey's foreign minister has said the fighter jet shot down by Syrian air defence forces on Friday was in international airspace when it was hit.

Ahmet Davutoglu said the unarmed plane was not on a secret mission related to Syria, but had mistakenly entered Syrian airspace before the incident.

Syria maintains that it engaged the aircraft in its airspace "according to the laws that govern such situations".

The Turkish and Syrian navies are still searching for the two crew members.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is meeting the leaders of the three other parties in parliament to discuss how to respond.

Turkey had also called a meeting of Nato member states on Tuesday.

"Turkey has requested consultations under article 4 of Nato's founding Washington Treaty. Under article 4, any ally can request consultations whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened," Nato spokeswoman Oana Lungescu told the Reuters news agency.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said Syria's actions were "outrageous" and underlined "how far beyond accepted behaviour the Syrian regime has put itself".

"It will be held to account for its behaviour. The UK stands ready to pursue robust action at the United Nations Security Council."

'Training flight'

In an interview with TRT television on Sunday, Mr Davutoglu asserted that the unarmed F-4 Phantom had "momentarily" entered Syrian airspace by mistake on Friday but had left when it was shot down 15 minutes later.

"According to our conclusions, our plane was shot down in international airspace, 13 nautical miles (24km) from Syria," he said.

According to international law, a country's airspace extends 12 nautical miles (22.2km) from its coastline, corresponding with its territorial waters.

Mr Davutoglu also insisted that the jet had not been on a "covert mission related to Syria" but had instead been carrying out a training flight to test Turkey's radar capabilities.

He said the plane had not "shown any hostility", been clearly marked as Turkish, and that he did not agree with the Syrian military's statement that it had not known to whom it belonged.

Privately, senior members of the governing AK Party have accused Syria of violating international law, says the BBC's Jonathan Head in Istanbul.

Earlier, Mr Davutoglu spoke by telephone to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who has urged restraint by both sides, and the foreign ministers of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

Turkey wants to be sure of the strongest backing once it decides its official response, our correspondent adds.

The government has promised that it will be strong, decisive and legitimate, and that it will share all the information it has with the public.

'Unidentified target'

The Turkish military said it lost radio contact with the F-4 Phantom at 11:58 (08:58 GMT) on Friday while it was flying over Hatay province, about 90 minutes after it took off from Erhac airbase in the province of Malatya, to the north-west.

Later, the Syrian military said an "unidentified air target" had penetrated Syrian airspace from the west at 11:40 local time (08:40 GMT), travelling at very low altitude and at high speed.

It said that in line with the laws prevailing in such cases, Syrian air defences engaged the craft, and scored a direct hit about 1km (0.5 nautical miles) from its coastline.

It burst into flames, and crashed into the sea at a point 10km (5 nautical miles) from the village of Om al-Tuyour, off the coast of Latakia province, well within Syrian territorial waters, the statement added.

Syrian television showed a map charting the aircraft's movements, coming in from over the sea near northern Cyprus.

The Syrian military statement said that after it "became clear the target was a Turkish military plane which had entered our airspace", the naval commands of the two countries were in touch, and a joint operation was going on to find the missing crew members.

Relations between Nato-member Turkey and Syria, once close allies, have deteriorated sharply since the uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011. More than 30,000 Syrian refugees have fled the violence across the border into Turkey.

After a cross-border shooting by Syrian security forces in April that left two refugees dead at a camp near the town of Kilis, Turkey said it would not tolerate any action that it deemed violating its security.

BBC News - Turkish jet 'downed by Syria in international airspace'

as i always said, there are 2 threats Syria poses, SAMs and anti-ship missiles

the jet was not downed in Syrian airspace, and this is a violation of international law, Turkey should now take serious steps to neutralise these threats

Syria has never shot down any Israeli airforce jets who routinenly violate and bomb Syria, yet when Turkish jets are doing routine patrol they shot it down? cus they seem to think that they can get away with it, whereas with Israel they wont, how cowardly

Turkish should drop in special forces to take out coastal defences and send in high low mix of jets and knock out the Syrian batterys who have also been shelling Turkish border, they have also killed Turkish border guards who look after Syrian refugess

---------- Post added at 06:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------

Originally Posted by SampanViking

This has been very interesting.

Clearly the F4 was somewhere it should not have been and presumably therefore doing something it should not have been doing.

I have been looking at this from the perspective of it being a NATO warplane, meaning a aircraft configured to at least the minimum NATO operating standard.

We also have the changing of the story from the Turkish side since Friday from the Plane flying routine patrol to flying a reconnaissance mission, which is a fairly substantial difference. Recon after all, is something you do on other peoples territory, "to gain information about the enemy", a phrase which in this day and age has a significant range of meanings.

If I had to make a guess, I would say that the F4 was testing ECM/Suppression on Syrian Air Defences and given that we would be talking NATO stand ECM, that the detection and downing of the aircraft will have come as a very nasty surprise across the alliance.

One question I keep asking though and to which there appears no mention of, let alone an answer is; what happened to the other plane?

Turkey is a established and responsible NATO power, the recon aircraft had open radio communication, it had identified itself as a Turkish airforce jet

Syrian airdefence should have established contact, given a warning, then forced to plane to land in extreme situtaion, it is very irresponsible to down a aircraft without following international procedure

just recently Turkish airforce has taken delivery of 4 x Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft, this will give Turkey the capability to see inside Syria from a distance, they have no reason to "test" Syrian airdefences

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

as i always said, there are 2 threats Syria poses, SAMs and anti-ship missiles

the jet was not downed in Syrian airspace, and this is a violation of international law, Turkey should now take serious steps to neutralise these threats

Syria has never shot down any Israeli airforce jets who routinenly violate and bomb Syria, yet when Turkish jets are doing routine patrol they shot it down? cus they seem to think that they can get away with it, whereas with Israel they wont, how cowardly

Turkish should drop in special forces to take out coastal defences and send in high low mix of jets and knock out the Syrian batterys who have also been shelling Turkish border, they have also killed Turkish border guards who look after Syrian refugess

---------- Post added at 06:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------



Turkey is a established and responsible NATO power, the recon aircraft had open radio communication, it had identified itself as a Turkish airforce jet

Syrian airdefence should have established contact, given a warning, then forced to plane to land in extreme situtaion, it is very irresponsible to down a aircraft without following international procedure

just recently Turkish airforce has taken delivery of 4 x Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft, this will give Turkey the capability to see inside Syria from a distance, they have no reason to "test" Syrian airdefences

A recon mission isn't out of the question right?

If the wannabe tough guy Erdogan hasn't done anything so far, chances are the Turkish were doing something they aren't willing to admit to the public and mostly likely in Syrian airspace. This was a guy who completely turned against China because of what Uighur terrorists did in Xinjiang in order to get more votes.

Once again we don't know that but the odds are against what you stated above.

Uighur and Xinjiang?? i dont understand what that has to do with the situation at hand, stick to the topic

downing a non-hostile aircraft in international waters without warning is a clear violation of international law

the standard procedure is to first establish communication, then issue a warning, then intercept to force a landing using escorts

firing on a aircraft is very irresponsible

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

Uighur and Xinjiang?? i dont understand what that has to do with the situation at hand, stick to the topic

downing a non-hostile aircraft in international waters without warning is a clear violation of international law

the standard procedure is to first establish communication, then issue a warning, then intercept to force a landing using escorts

firing on a aircraft is very irresponsible

Sorry asif, but that version does not stack up at all.
Reuters are reporting that the wreck is in a known location 10 miles from the Syrian coast, well inside Syrian territorial waters. I am not aware of anyone denying that it was shot down by tripe A, so the notion of a flack wagon chucking it out over 20kms is risible.

Finally on the BBC, a Turkish spokesman let it slip when he said:

Mr Davutoglu also insisted that the jet had not been on a "covert mission related to Syria" but had instead been carrying out a training flight to test Turkey's radar capabilities.

BBC News - Turkey: Jet 'downed by Syria in international airspace'

That is pretty much an admission that the Phantom was engaged in EW and the claim that it was just testing its own RADARS is frankly disingenuous. Not only does this contradict the two previous versions of the Turkish story, it then would raise the issue of reckless stupidity of not informing its neighbour that such an exercise on its borders were taking place.

I have no doubt, that this Phantom was seeing if it could burn a hole in Syrian AD's and that it was doing it on behalf of NATO to help prepare for any eventual R2P. These Phantoms I am told have been heavily upgraded as recon birds and carry a lot of very fancy Israeli goodies. I suspect that the signatures of these may have been picked up by the Syrians and as such sealed the aircraft's fate.

I still wonder why so little is being said about the second aircraft though?!

Ok heres another story as its emerges

just a few days ago Syrian Mig21 defected to Jordan, since then Syrian airdefence has been under orders to down any aircraft which is deemed to defecting from its airspace

under this scenario Syrian airdefences didnt think twice and engaged the Turkish Jet, i was thinking, how did Syria manage to grow so much guts to openly engage Turkish fighter aircraft, they would not be so irresponsible because its asking for trouble

after realising it was a Turkish jet Syria has actually co-operated with Turkey on all levels and both countrys have been searching for the downed aircraft, the navys of both nations have searched the waters

so now it seems like it could simply have been a mis-understanding and mis-communication, guess we will have to wait for more details but now the dynamic has changed altogether

When I read the first report, it said the jet was down by AA gun. Does anybody has different idea on this? If the jet was down by AA gun, I wonder where the AA gun was located? We all know that AA guns have limited range and usually in visual range. So, I don't quite agree that the engagement was in international airspace.