Russian naval forces to be deployed in Mediterranean Sea using Syrian ports...

**crazyinsane105** · 12-11-2007, 05:03 PM

Well, I've been hearing news about this for quite a while, but with the Conventional Arms Treaty that Russia is pulling out of, this was bound to happen. It's going to be very interesting as how the Russians may react to the next and probably inevitable Israel-Hezbullah conflict...

http://www.defense-update.com/analys...91207_navy.htm

Russian Mediterranean Naval Build-Up Challenges NATO Sixth Fleet Domination
David Eshel

This week witnessed a great thrust by Russia to demonstrate its military strength, when Russian President Vladimir Putin alarmed Europe by finally declaring Russia's official rejection of the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty (CFE), (the treaty entered into force on July 17, 1992 limiting the number of combat elements that Russia could deploy along its borders with Europe). Immediately following this declaration, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov announced sending a sortie of six Russian warships to the Mediterranean, led by the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier. Other vessels escorting the carrier as part of the task force are Admiral Levchenko and Admiral Chabanenko anti-submarine ships, and the Sergei Osipov and Nikolai Chiker support ships. The group is expected to be joined by the flagship Moskva a guided missile cruiser and four additional ships as it arrives in the Mediterranean.

This will be the first prolonged stay of a Russian carrier to the eastern Mediterranean in waters dominated with regular patrolled by the US Sixth Fleet and in vicinity of Israel’s shores. On its decks Admiral Kuznetsov carries 47 warplanes (mostly Su-33) and 10 helicopters. The Russian Black Sea Fleet contingent, which has already set out for its new mission from Sevastopol, will rely on the naval facilities at Syria’s Tartous port. Its presence for several months will be a complication for the Israel navy’s operations opposite the Lebanese and Syrian coasts, especially if the Russians could be joined at Tartous by Iranian extended Kilo class submarines armed with the Russian-made "Sizzler" Klub-S (3M54) missile, as some unofficial Israeli sources reported. The Rusian Kuznetsov carrier group will conduct three tactical exercises, including real and simulated launch of missiles, said Serdyukov, adding 11 port visits are expected to be made.

Sending such powerful Russian warships onto the Mediterranean, for any amount of time, is no small matter. With the Mediterranean having been a "NATO lake" for the past 15 years, since the demise of the Soviet Union, the simple presence of a naval Russian force will require reviewed strategy and tactics of many of western and Israeli navies.

On its decks Admiral Kuznetsov carries 47 warplanes (mostly Su-33) and 10 helicopters.

The Russian Federation Navy Udaloy-class guided missile destroyer RFNS Admiral Levchenko (DDG 605), foreground, and the guided missile cruiser USS Hue City (CG 66) maneuver alongside one another during tactical maneuvering drills in support of Northern Eagle 2004. Photo: US NavyBut making matters even more complicated for NATO, the Kremlin has also decided to send a sortie of warships to the northeastern Atlantic. No less that eleven vessels from the Northern Fleet have set sail on a range of voyages that will cover much of the globe. Extending to more than 12,000 miles they are scheduled to enter ports of six countries in 71 days.

The Russian Federation Navy ASW destroyer Admiral Chabanenko at sea, tracked by the Royal Navy ship HMS Exeter. Photo: Royal NavyIn the latest twist to worsening East-West relations, NATO submarines and surface ships, which may include Royal Navy vessels, are already engaged in trying to gather information on the new Amur stealth class boat, being secretly tested by the Russian Navy in the Baltic. Adding to this greater-than-normal scrutiny effort is in part, a response to Russia's recent decision to resume long-range bomber flights close, or even penetrating into NATO airspace, which has revived memories of Cold War confrontation between the two blocs. In fact, twice during last summer, Russian Tu-95 Bear nuclear bombers have been spotted heading towards British airspace off Scotland, prompting the RAF to send fast reaction interceptors to head them off.
The prospect of Russia reactivating its cold war naval bases in Syria's Tartus and Latakia ports, could have a most dramatic strategic impact. High-profile air defense missiles and surveillance systems deployment around any Russian-manned installations in Syrian ports, might also shift the military balance to Israel's disadvantage, or even threaten a clash between Israel and Russian forces, as happened during the later stages of the so-called War of Attrition in 1970, along the Suez Canal.

The Russian Black Sea fleet's 720th Logistics Support Point at Tartus has been in disuse since 1991, when the Soviet Union imploded. Yet it remains the only Russian military base outside the post-Soviet Commonwealth of Independent States territory. Last year Russia reportedly dredged Tartus and began building a new dock at Latakia.
The Syrian ports are invaluable for the Russian navy as an alternative naval base, provided that their security could be assured, by a viable air defense barrier - The Moskva with 64 SN-A-6 missiles on board (navalized S-300) will be able to provide such capability

Israeli analysts believe that the present and rather unprecedented Russian strategic decision - sending such an impressive naval sortie into the eastern Mediterranean - could have resulted from Israel's still mysterious foray into Syrian air defense, during the air strike on an alleged nuclear development or weapon assembly site. According to Aviation Week - who interviewed the retired Brigadier General Pinchas Burchris, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, before the Israeli fighter aircraft ingress, a main Syrian radar site was struck with a combination of electronic attack and precision weapons, causing complete black-out of the entire Syrian air defense system which relied exclusively on Russian produced and installed equipment. Aviation Week claims this event may have been one of the first examples of offensive and defensive network attacks that included higher-level, non-tactical network penetrations.

No precise information, nor confirmation of the AW&ST report was released by Israeli official authorities, but the very fact that non-stealth jet fighters managed to enter unscathed into the highly sophisticated Russian supplied air defense barrier, built painstakingly during decades, since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, speaks for itself. It certainly must have caused Moscow considerable embarrassment, over the lack of performance of their latest sophisticated air defense systems sold for hard cash to Mid Eastern Muslim nations.

But not embarrassment alone, painful as it was, could have triggered Moscow to such a rapid reaction. The Russian navy is under growing pressure from Ukraine to withdraw the Black Sea Fleet from its traditional deployment at Sevastopol by 2017. Some recent incidents has sharpened this into, sofar minor, clashes with local elements, but the warnings are out in clear: "get out - you are no longer wanted here"!

The 'Kiev Post' noted that the Black Sea fleet's lease on its Sevastopol base is "hostage" to Ukraine's volatile relations with Moscow - which will expire in 2017, necessitating a renegotiation or withdrawal. The Russian Black Sea Fleet base already boosted security at its navigational facilities, amid a dispute with Ukraine authorities, over a lighthouse, linked to the fleet in the Crimean city of Yalta. The Russian move came after Ukraine threatened to take over all the navigational facilities of the Black Sea Fleet. The dispute emerged when the staff of a Ukrainian state company seized the lighthouse and denied Russian servicemen access to the lighthouse.

All this would render the Syrian ports invaluable for an alternative naval base, provided that their security could be assured, by a viable air defense barrier, safeguarding them from any future Israeli, or US attack, or even surveillance activities. Bolstering such an air defense can be enhanced by the long-term presence in off-shore deployment of high-profile warships, mounting sophisticated airpower (Su-33 fighters) and air defense armament, such as the Admiral Kuznetsov's 3K95 Kinzhal missile system, the navalized version of the TOR and the Slava class Moskva's SA-N-6 Grumble navalized version of the S-300 (SA-10).

Another aspect of the new Russian Med deployment is intelligence. Israeli electronic warfare experts warn that the presence of a strong Russian naval force, most likely based in the Syrian port of Tartus, would represent a significant strengthening of Russian intelligence gathering capabilities in the region. The Russian navy is considered to have high-quality electronic equipment capable of observing new weapons systems and intercepting communications, which could become high-value assets to Syria and Iran. Russian intelligence maintained constant presence for several decades in international waters, where listening ships, camouflaged as fishing boats were positioned continuously off the Israeli coast, gathering electronic and communications. This activity continued at least through the 1990s.

Whatever the latest Russian foray might signal, one thing is clear, the Mediterranean will soon become a new 'Cold War' type contest between Western and Russian navies, which will heat up substantially once the new Russian fourth generation Project 955 Borey class submarines, armed with Bulava missiles also enter into the fray.

**bd popeye** · 12-11-2007, 06:34 PM

On its decks Admiral Kuznetsov carries 47 warplanes (mostly Su-33) and 10 helicopters

First off I want to see a picture ofthe ADM"K" with all those aircraft on deck...ain't gonna happen.

The Russians "deployment" of their lone CV the ADM"K" is a bit of a misnomer..When the Russians operate that ship it takes them about three weeks to do the same ops("Launches" & Traps) the ISN CVN's do in lessthan a day. The ADM "K" has not been to sea since sometime in 2005.(not sure)...

Also the Russian ships suffer from catostrophic engineering problems. Did you know that there were major engineering spaces fires on every Russian CV that killed hundres of Russian sailors? That's one of the reasons besides money the Russians have one single CV.

All in all this will be a very big test for the Russians to see if they can maintain a task force this size away from it's home port for any lenght of time.

**maozedong** · 12-11-2007, 06:47 PM

This is not only Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to rebuild its power and glory,Russian reconstruction from the ruins of the Soviet Union.
in fact,The Russians had been oppressed by the NATO within the Kremlin's walls,This is the polar bear long been molesting other animals, issued its bluster.
The Russians once again demonstrated its military strength, due to its economic reconstruction, the strong demand for crude oil market, and enhance the confidence of the Russian people.
Russia raising again,let the US reduce the pressure on China's military, China gained enlightenment from the recent Chinese diplomatic position, but also has become tough.

**chakos** · 12-11-2007, 06:57 PM

If this story carries any truth the implications for the military status quo in the region are shattering. I would wait to see if this story is varified by other sources and then we can all comment further.

**Finn McCool** · 12-11-2007, 07:03 PM

Popeye is right; the Russians will have a tough time sustaining this fleet. It will get to its destination and back though.

The author of this article describes who the Israelis essentially embarassed Russian air defence technology but then holds up more of the same as the "viable air defence this base needs". Obviously the TOR and the S-300 are more capable than what Syria has but its still little hypocrital to say that where the previous gnerations have failed miserably, the next generation will succeed without a doubt. If the Russian Air force can base a squadron or two in Syria then air defence is not nearly as much of a problem.

Lastly I think that the strategic relevance of this deployment is a little overblown. It matters a lot in the relationship between Israel and its enemies/neighbors, but on the East vs. West power balance scale it doesn't mean much. Even if the Russians were to base a fleet there what would it do? It would be stranded (Bosporous closed, Gibraltar far out of reach of any Russian Navy flotillas). It gives the Russian Navy a far better chance to get through the Bosporous chokepoint and link up with the rest of the Black Sea Fleet, but that is still an realistic scenario.

In a way all of this is irrelevant because it is looking at these bases from a war perspective. The real value of a deployment in Syria (for Russia) is political.

**bd popeye** · 12-11-2007, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by chakos

If this story carries any truth the implications for the military status quo in the region are shattering. I would wait to see if this story is varified by other sources and then we can all comment further.

I agree..I just spent about 20 minutes looking for some photographic proof of this deployment and found nothing..Somebody show me something!

**utelore** · 12-11-2007, 10:23 PM

Russia would be in a very rude awaking if it decided to test its fighters or pilots against Israel. from what I am hearing this is to deter israel as they are getting ready to stun the world like the 6 day war. 100 Merkava 4 and 600 Merkava 3 and 500 heavy APC ready to roll into syria.

Israel has proof and is pissed to high heaven about arms going into lebanon for seconded war of atrition and the israeli are going strike first.

Multi pronged thrust into lebanon, Gaza and a thunder run on Damascus. while shutting down power to all of syria via air power. If Iran honors treaty 60 F15 and F16I takes down Iranian nuke sites.

**crazyinsane105** · 12-11-2007, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

Popeye is right; the Russians will have a tough time sustaining this fleet. It will get to its destination and back though.

The author of this article describes who the Israelis essentially embarassed Russian air defence technology but then holds up more of the same as the "viable air defence this base needs". Obviously the TOR and the S-300 are more capable than what Syria has but its still little hypocrital to say that where the previous gnerations have failed miserably, the next generation will succeed without a doubt. If the Russian Air force can base a squadron or two in Syria then air defence is not nearly as much of a problem.

Lastly I think that the strategic relevance of this deployment is a little overblown. It matters a lot in the relationship between Israel and its enemies/neighbors, but on the East vs. West power balance scale it doesn't mean much. Even if the Russians were to base a fleet there what would it do? It would be stranded (Bosporous closed, Gibraltar far out of reach of any Russian Navy flotillas). It gives the Russian Navy a far better chance to get through the Bosporous chokepoint and link up with the rest of the Black Sea Fleet, but that is still an realistic scenario.

In a way all of this is irrelevant because it is looking at these bases from a war perspective. The real value of a deployment in Syria (for Russia) is political.

I still have trouble believing some of the things the author has said. First of all, I've researched a bit and I haven't come across any figures that state there will be 47 aircraft on the deck. I've come across figures of up to 28 aircraft along with about a dozen or so helicopters, but nowhere close to what the author has reported.

Another thing that seems weird is that I haven't read any other sources except from this author that states Syria had Tor-M1 missiles. The Pantsyr-S1 system, although Syria does have it, won't protect against a mid-level altitude attack of any sort, and there were reports that the Syrians opened fire on the aircraft and the Israelis had to drop their external fuel tanks and munitions to evade the fire. So maybe the Pantsyr-S1 did work somewhat? Who knows.

Although the aircraft carrier isn't going to be of huge value, it will probably be the guided air defense ships that can be the biggest threats. I have doubts the Russians will fire upon Israeli aircraft unless provoked to do so (and since the Russians happen to be one of Israel's largest oil suppliers, that probably won't happen...), but maybe the ships will be used more for reconnaissance than anything else.

**Lociz** · 12-14-2007, 01:31 PM

Hi all, my first post on this forum.

Since you cant find any information about the kuznetsov deployment to the Med i thought I would give you some links to start with:

http://mnweekly.ru/news/20071206/55295359.html

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/18065

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssE...15126720071211

http://www.barentsobserver.com/index...ir=1&noredir=1

Interesting picture not far from Norvegian oil-platforms: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2007/12/11/520894.html

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/...issue=11926134

47 planes and 10 helicopters is including strategic bombers supposeed to participate in exercises.
Kuznetsov was built to carry 12 Flankers, 16 Yak-41's and 24 Kamov's in total. I doubt it carries that many planes this to the Med, reportedly, there are only about a dozen Su-33 shipboard multi-role aircraft available for the Kuznetsovi. I dont think they have trained pilots either for all the Flankers. Also the Udaloy's can carry to Kamov's each.

According to the defense minister on Russian tv the war ships involved will be

1. The Kuznetsov
2. The Levchenko
3. The Chabanenko (the only Udaloy 2)
4. The cruiser Moskva. Meeting the Northern Fleet group from the Black Sea.

**bd popeye** · 12-15-2007, 06:54 PM

I found this picture of the ADM "K" in another military forum. There was no caption. The poster aledges that the ship is underway to the Mediterranean Sea.. That flight deck looks devoid of aircraft. What do you gents think???

Lociz..Thanks for your post. Great info. The above pics is in one of those links...

**Gollevainen** · 12-16-2007, 01:51 PM

Ok there seems to be some technical proplems here. Lociz made a post about the russian task force, but apparently its not visible to all (including himself) so therefore he posted the same thing several times. I deleted the duplicated post and left the first one intact.

I don't know the reason for this but I can assure you that the post wasen't moderated or sensored by us, its unappearing seems to be purely techical proplem. Its sad becouse the post itself was rather interesting and informative.

If you (Lociz) cannot see your orginal post, please contact webmaster so he can sort this thing out.

Thanks
Gollevainen
Supermod

**Lociz** · 12-16-2007, 02:08 PM

why are my posts removed?

**bd popeye** · 12-16-2007, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lociz

why are my posts removed?

I never saw it..just keep posting and I'm sure they will appear...We as mods are so sorry for any inconvienionce.

Humm

I just thought of something. I know yesterday I made a post and it apperaed three times even though I only clicked once...

**Lociz** · 12-16-2007, 03:14 PM

Something wrong here, trying one more time..Posted a long post but everything lost after publishing. Ok, here is some of it.
First some info about the deployment:
http://mnweekly.ru/news/20071206/55295359.html
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/...issue=11926134
http://www.barentsobserver.com/index...ir=1&noredir=1
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssE...15126720071211

The following ships are deploying:
Admiral Kuznetsov - carrier
Admiral Levchenko - Udaloy I destroyer
Admiral Chabanenko - Udaloy II destroyer
Sergey Osipov - Boris Chilikin class fleet oiler
Nikolaj Chiker - salvage tug
Moskva - Slava class cruiser
Ivan Bubnov - Boris Chilikin class fleet oiler
Iman - Olekma class light oiler
Lena - Uda class light oiler
Kola - Altay class light oiler
Unnamed salvage tug

The first 5 listed ships from the Northern Fleet, Lena and kola from Baltic I think, and the rest from the Black Sea fleet.

About the list of planes. Remember this is INCLUDING strategic bombers who will take part in exercises. Kuznetsov can only take 12 Flankers i think, 4-5 Frogfots and 20 Kamov's. Both the Udaloys can take 2 Kamovs each. I dont think they have enough trained pilots to fill the ship, but Kuznetsov is very much operative, and a very capable ship. She has got an impressive weaponload, for example the SS-N-19 missiles. She has some limitations in number of planes, but remember she was built to protect SSBN submarines and other naval surface ships..

**Lociz** · 12-16-2007, 03:15 PM

Whats going on here? I see my post for some minutes, and then it is removed.....

Russian naval forces to be deployed in Mediterranean Sea using Syrian ports...

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