SinoDefence Forum

adeptitus

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Russian/Soviet Aircraft carriers were all built at the Black Sea Shipyard in Ukraine, right? The largest Soviet ships built in actual Russian shipyards, such as the one at St. Petersburg, was the Kirov class battle cruiser?

Would it be correct to say that Russian shipyards today have zero experience in building aircraft carriers?

That's not to say that they couldn't do it. The Indians don't have that kind of experience, but they're building the Project 71 carriers at Cochin shipyard anyway.

If I were the Russians, I'd look to doing what the British and French are doing, and getting together with India for joint R&D on carrier related developments. It's getting very expensive for non-superpowers to afford these ships. The Indian Navy is expected to float the first new carrier in 2012, and the second around 2017. The Russians can observe (let someone else fix all the problems first!) and follow, to deploy 2 new carriers of their own in 2017-2020 time frame.

Gollevainen

I think the largest capacity to build warships today in Russia is the Sevmass in Severodvinsk which should be able to build at least Kiev size carriers (similar size ships have actually been laid down there)

But the cap alone in time is enough to loose alot of experties in the actual building (designing was always done in Russia anyway) so even if the Nikolayev would be under russian control they pretty much have to start from the sratchs.

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montyp165

Something like an improved Ulyanovsk class CVN would be an excellent addition to the Russian surface fleet.

bd popeye

Improved?? They never finished the first one. What ever happen to that ships hull??

If the Russians started today building an CVn from the original Ulyanovsk plans it would take them a minimum of 7-10 years.

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Scratch

I think they started scrapping the 40% finished hull on feb 4th '92. So I guess there's not much left of it.

Obi Wan Russell

It would stil be possible to build an improved version of a ship that was never completed, as it is the DESIGN that is being improved upon. The Severomorsk shipyard where the Indian carrier Vikramiditya is (slowly) being converted from a Kiev class ship is the most likely venue for future Russian Carrier construction and the Indian ship is effectively a training program (dry run) for the shipyard, as the work required covers almost all areas of practical experience required to build a carrier from scratch (beyond keel laying and building the hull up to launching stage, much less complicated than the fitting out period). I think any future Russian carrier program will build on experience with the Kuznetzov (ie it will retain STOBAR configuration) though with a view to later CATOBAR upgrade, once the Americans have ironed out all the bugs from EMALS and Russian spies have stolen the secrets! Only Kidding... well maybe. I think they will be looking more at series production as well, since a singular carrier is of little use when it is drydock or otherwise 'off duty' in port. Earlier statements from the Russian Navy's higher echelons about building a class of up to six CVs may not be so fanciful as at first they seemed, though they won't all enter service in quick succession. A spread of more than twenty years is likely, and I would also expect conventional propulsion rather than nuclear to keep costs down. For a given budget nuclear power could mean the difference between ordering six carriers and only two or three, and numbers may prove more desirable than unrefuelled range for Russia as expansion of it's naval forces begins once more.

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man overbored

A few comments. All those shipwreck missiles under the forward flight deck take up space that would be used for hanger and maintenance shops on any western carrier. Seems Ivan never fully trusted aircraft to carry the VMF's offensive capability. Maybe a wise choice given the inability of their STOBAR ops to permit fully loaded aircraft to take off in all wind conditions. Russia make it's own catapult? They tried for decades and failed, hence STOBAR. Right now only one place in the world makes a cat capable of launching a heavy combat jet and that is the NAVAIR facility in Lakehurst PA. Even the French have to buy from there, and that cat is a highly classified piece of equipment.
If Russia did put a cat on it, the best place is forward by removing the ski jump. Putting it forward will allow planes to launch and recover similtaneously. Putting it on the angle deck is also good for a rapid launch of a strike force, but you don't want to shut down launching aircraft during recovery.
Russia lost her carrier training facility in Baku and has never replaced it. Notice that even though the Indian Navy is buying MiG's for her new carriers, they have to go to Pensacola to carrier qual. Russia could not offer India such training. Russia cannot even train her own pilots ashore anymore.
Is it just me or do those port side photos show a lot of wear to the hull paint already?
Btw, I like how the Russkies held their exercises all along the coasts of several Nato nations, including a joint training op with the Italians. Talk about your intel bonanza! It is almost like the infamous receiving line at Tailhook, everyone had a nice grope of Ivana as she passed by.

man overbored

Where is Russia getting all this money to build six carriers from? Their GDP is a bit larger than that of Australia or Mexico and their population, half of that of the former USSR, is in a free fall. Italy's GDP is higher and that ain't saying much, all they can manage is a carrier every two decades and smallish one's at that. UK is struggling to build two the size of Kuznetzov. Ivan cannot even finish one conversion for India on time and on budget. I think you are overestimating Russian shipbuilding. How many new combat ships has Russia built in the last decade for it's own navy? Fewer than six, one Udaloy II, while withdrawing half the existing older Udaloy's. How many new Sovs in the fleet? Oh, those went to China didn't they. A single DDG, some frigates and some corvettes, and a single boomer. Only SSN's continue in something resembling series production. How many new fighters has Russia added to it's air forces? None. It is coming to the point where there will be more Flanker variants in service abroad than in Russia itself. Russia lost her big shipyard at Nikolayev and their carrier training and research facility at Baku, and hasn't fully replaced either. Notice India had to have the USN carrier qual her pilots at Pensacola because Russia has no training facility. When oil prices fall ( and they will ) Putin's annointed successor will not have the options you imagine today.

man overbored

How is a nation like Russia with a GDP only slightly higher than that of Mexico or Australia going to build and support a half dozen big deck carriers? Russia's population is less than half that of the old USSR, and falling steadily along with the average life expectancy. Her budget is tied to the price of oil, a notoriously volatile commodity pricewise. Italy, with a larger GDP than Russia, struggles to build a smallish carrier every two decades. The Brits are breaking the piggy bank to build the two CVF's ( first new flight decks since 1985 ) and then operate these over their expected life spans. Now some propose that Russia can actually afford to build and operate six when so far it cannot even keep it's sole carrier at sea reliably. Russian lost it's carrier training facility in Baku and when the Indian Navy needed carrier qual training to operate her Mig-29K's off the new carrier India wound up having to go to the USN for the training. Indian pilots will earn their tail hook qual on a Nimitz class!
Maybe if the Indian ship wasn't years behind I would not be so doubtful. What exactly has Russia built for her own navy in the last fifteen years? A few frigates and corvettes, one modified Udaloy II and some Sovremenny's, oh those were for China. Never mind. One boomer while some other subs sit in the yards incomplete. India might buy one or two incomplete SSN but, oh my, didn't the Indian Navy just reject a new Kilo in the yards and send the crew home to India when the 3M54 missile test program suffered additional failures. The Russians told the Indian's that missile would require at least another year to become operational? India told Russia to keep their sub until they sort out that missile. This is the nation that will build and operate a half dozen flattops? We'll see. :-)

FSDSMAN

India's new carrier is a sister ship of the Kuz.
The SU33's are now on the back burner and as the "library pics" in this thread show 14 year old photos of SU33 prototypes that are no longer servicable and are not even airworthy are a joke.
No full servicable SU 33 was adoroned with the "wavy" flag or tiger head
All (briefly) serving SU 33's Had a standard straight flag emblem.
The air group for the Kuz will be a future Mig 29 as this is cheaper and a deal with India over a naval A/C for the old ship with the Mig has ment that Russia will use the costs of the production for these to replace the SU33 although the existing one's are expected to remain in service untill 2025 as long as they are not pushed too hard.
Also it is very unusual to even see a Frogfoot on the deck today let alone old Kamov's from the late 90's
Of course I may be wrong but shall we say I have a vested interest it what the Kuz and Rusian navy air arm do - especially as the new defense re-structure has stripped them of most TU22 M 3's also and associated bases.
Peace

bd popeye

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