SinoDefence Forum

rhino123 · 11-24-2009

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2009112/a...ce_navy_ship_3

Recently, I have read a news from Yahoo.com that actually show that Russia are interested in buying French amphibious assault ship. This came as a shock to me... I mean, during Soviet time, they are able to build any class of ships without much problem... they even design and build aircraft carriers.

What is happening to Russia now? Why couldn't they even design and build an amphibious assault ship? Have their economy actually collasped this much? I thought they are picking up in recent years... whats more, they have solid technology bases and industrial support.

Your thoughts?

Pointblank · 11-24-2009

I would say it is a failure of the Russian shipbuilding industry. The Russians don't 'trust' their shipbuilders anymore to deliver solid designs on time and on budget. The current ongoing disaster of the refit of the Indian carrier INS Vikramaditya is an example of this...

bd popeye · 11-24-2009

The title of this thread is a misnomer. The Russians are thinking about buying a Mistral LHD..Just thinking. No deal has been struck. But I bet something is in the works..check this out!

Quote:

Seamen walk past as the Mistral French amphibious helicopter carrier docks on the Neva River in St. Petersburg, November 23, 2009.

French ship Russia wants to buy in St Petersburg - Yahoo! News

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia – A French amphibious assault ship like the one Russia hopes to buy arrived Monday in St. Petersburg, fueling concern in Georgia and other ex-Soviet nations that Russia is upgrading its navy to intimidate its neighbors.

The Mistral military ship, which can carry more than a dozen helicopters along with dozens of tanks and other armored vehicles, would certainly be a modern way to project Russian power.

It docked Monday on the Neva River, about 1 kilometer (.6 miles) from the Hermitage museum. Russian officials are considering buying a Mistral ship and a license to build several others — their first such purchase from a NATO country.

Media reports have said it would cost Russia up to euro500 million ($750 million) to buy a Mistral-class ship

Russia has only one Soviet-built aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, which is much smaller than the U.S. aircraft carriers and has been plagued by mechanical problems and accidents.

Russian shipbuilders have opposed the Mistral deal, saying the government should invest in domestic production instead. Navy officials have argued that license production of Mistral-class ships would help modernize Russia's aging industries.

The navy chief, Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky, has said a ship like Mistral would have allowed the Russian navy to mount a much more efficient operation in the Black Sea during the Russia-Georgia war. He said the French ship would take just 40 minutes to do the job that the Russian Black Sea Fleet vessels did in 26 hours, apparently referring to amphibious landing operations...

Mods note >> I'm changing the name of this thread.

bd popeye super moderator and Grand Pubah

montyp165 · 11-24-2009

Russians have historically purchased ships from the French, so it isn't without precedent.

rhino123 · 11-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by montyp165

Russians have historically purchased ships from the French, so it isn't without precedent.

Huh? Really? What type of ships and what class was it? I thought during the commies era, Soviet is actually loggerhead with the rest of Europe and the formation of NATO is originally to prevent an all out invasion of the Soviet into mainland Europe.

Finn McCool · 11-25-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhino123

Huh? Really? What type of ships and what class was it? I thought during the commies era, Soviet is actually loggerhead with the rest of Europe and the formation of NATO is originally to prevent an all out invasion of the Soviet into mainland Europe.

They purchased ships from France during the Tsarist era, but I don't know if that's what the original post was referring to.

rhino123 · 11-25-2009

At this present time, don't you think it is better to support your own local production and developement of LHD or carriers. This would no doubt be more expensive than buying one from other nation, but at least it will bring the shipbuilding industries back up. And I believe that the Russian still have the technological know how and industrial base to do it. I just couldn't understand their latest moves.

bd popeye · 11-25-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhino123

At this present time, don't you think it is better to support your own local production and developement of LHD or carriers. This would no doubt be more expensive than buying one from other nation, but at least it will bring the shipbuilding industries back up. And I believe that the Russian still have the technological know how and industrial base to do it. I just couldn't understand their latest moves.

Maybe so..However the Russians never mastered CV building techniques where as there CV's were riddled with engineering difficulties i.e Propulsion problems..

Vlad Plasmius · 11-26-2009

I think you're overreacting. Russia's ship-building industry certainly need improvements, but I do not think that is the reason they are trying to buy these French ships. It is about applying their resources. Comments from Russian military leaders all talk about building more aircraft carriers and so that is likely going to be their focus. Right now the Russians are working on the Gorshkov-class frigates and nuclear and diesel submarines. At the same time they are giving high priority to building up their Air and Ground forces.

Buying amphibious assault ships from France just seems to be the most logical way to go about it because if you check Russia's amphibious ships were all originally made in the 1970's or earlier. It is simply easier for them to purchase them and build them under license than work from scratch.

Ambivalent · 11-27-2009

The VMF never built a modern amphibious assault ship. The closest they got were the three Ivan Rogov's, whice are really just jumbo LST's. The docking well is tiny, they must beach to do their work. The VMF lacks big utility landing craft as well. Their amphibious lift was purely tactical, available to be used in theater, but there was no strategic sealift or the ability to stage a big amphibious assault far from the USSR's or Russia's borders.
The Mistral class would give a very much improved capability to the Russians. The Mistrals are, however, built to commercial standards to save on cost, they are not built to military standards. This was a deliberate choice of the French. They will not have the same level of damage control or water tight compartmentation as a true warship.

Ambivalent · 11-27-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalent

The VMF never built a modern amphibious assault ship. The closest they got were the three Ivan Rogov's, whice are really just jumbo LST's. The docking well is tiny, they must beach to do their work. The VMF lacks big utility landing craft as well. Their amphibious lift was purely tactical, available to be used in theater, but there was no strategic sealift or the ability to stage a big amphibious assault far from the USSR's or Russia's borders.
The Mistral class would give a very much improved capability to the Russians. The Mistrals are, however, built to commercial standards to save on cost, they are not built to military standards. This was a deliberate choice of the French. They will not have the same level of damage control or water tight compartmentation as a true warship.

Btw, I thought the Russians wanted to build their own Mistrals with French help???

Vlad Plasmius · 11-28-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalent

Btw, I thought the Russians wanted to build their own Mistrals with French help???

Yeah they want to buy one and then build another three as I recall.

Finn McCool · 11-28-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Plasmius

Yeah they want to buy one and then build another three as I recall.

One for the Black Sea Fleet, one for the Baltic, one for the Far East, one for the Northern Fleet? Or more likely, two for the Black Sea or Far East Fleet and none for the Northern Fleet?

Jeff Head · 11-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Plasmius

Yeah they want to buy one and then build another three as I recall.

Buying one, and then getting all of the engineering and manufacturing data from the French to enable them to license-build two or three more would be a huge boost to the Russians from many fronts. Shipbuilding capability wise, employment wise, and amphibious assault capability wise.

Are the French talking about selling a future built Mistral? and then allowing them to license build? It would seem very short sighted for the French to end up with only one Mistral. I would think two would be a minimum for them.

Lion · 11-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

Buying one, and then getting all of the engineering and manufacturing data from the French to enable them to license-build two or three more would be a huge boost to the Russians from many fronts. Shipbuilding capability wise, employment wise, and amphibious assault capability wise.

Are the French talking about selling a future built Mistral? and then allowing them to license build? It would seem very short sighted for the French to end up with only one Mistral. I would think two would be a minimum for them.

Short sighted? Finance, Manpower will be the key for French whether they can afford a 2 or 1.

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