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crazyinsane105 · 07-05-2007

Pakistani militants snub surrender call

By DENIS D. GRAY, Associated Press Writer 52 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Gunfire and explosions rocked a besieged radical mosque in Pakistan's capital Thursday as Islamic militants holed up in the complex snubbed a plea from their captured leader to surrender.
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The leader of the holdouts said they would consider leaving but only if authorities promised not to arrest anyone and met other demands. The government answered that the militants must surrender without conditions, and outbursts of gunfire erupted periodically during the night.

The army seemed to be holding back from a large-scale assault. The government was keen to avoid a bloodbath that would further damage President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's embattled administration and said troops would not storm the mosque while women and children were inside.

Interior Minister Aftab Khan Sherpao said soldiers were trying to blast holes in the walls of the fortress-like compound of the mosque and an adjoining seminary for girls, seeking to wear down the defenders' resolve and force a surrender without a bloody battle.

It wasn't clear how many people were holed up in the compound. The Interior Ministry said about 30 die-hard extremists were inside, while intelligence officials said there could be as many as 100. The military said several hundred students also might be in the compound.

Soldiers backed by armored vehicles and helicopters surrounded the Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, before dawn Wednesday, a day after the start of clashes between security forces and radical followers of the mosque that have killed at least 19 people.

The violence brought to a head a six-month standoff between Pakistan's U.S.-backed government and its top cleric, Maulana Abdul Aziz, who challenged Musharraf with a drive to impose Taliban-style Islamic law in Islamabad.

Journalists were barred from the area around the mosque, but several explosions were heard during a period of intense gunfire before dusk Thursday, sending a plume of black smoke into the sky.

A leader inside the mosque accused troops of firing several mortar rounds that killed 27 female students.

"A large section of the mosque is damaged and fires have broken out in the Jamia Hafsa (seminary)," Abdul Qayyum told The Associated Press by telephone, coughing repeatedly. "It's total chaos here. There is smoke everywhere and a fire in the room where we were keeping dead bodies" from earlier skirmishes.

Sherpao insisted no mortars were fired and said the alleged casualties were "just their claims."

The shooting later eased and the smoke cleared.

Officials said they were using helicopters and explosions in hopes of breaking the nerve of the mosque defenders and inducing a surrender. "We are using restraint on instructions from the president so that people surrender voluntarily," Sherpao said.

Aziz, who was captured Wednesday evening as he tried to slip through the army cordon disguised in a woman's burqa and high heels, said on state television that as many as 700 women and about 250 men remained inside the complex, armed with more than a dozen AK-47 assault rifles.

"If they can get out quietly they should go, or they can surrender if they want to," Aziz said. "I saw after coming out that the siege is very intense. ... Our companions will not be able to stay for long."

His comments raised the prospect of a swift resolution and a victory for Musharraf, who is under growing pressure at home and abroad over spreading religious extremism and his botched attempt to fire Pakistan's chief justice.

But the cleric's brother, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, remained inside the mosque with their die-hard followers and rejected the government's call for an unconditional surrender.

Speaking by phone to Pakistan's Geo news channel, Ghazi demanded a guarantee they would not be arrested and said authorities must let him move his mother and sister-in-law out of the complex to safety.

He denied claims by officials that he was using young students as human shields. "The charges against me are forged and fabricated," he said. "The government has been reduced to callousness."

Qayyum, Ghazi's aide, declined to comment on the statement from Aziz or to describe living conditions in the compound, where power and water had been cut off for days.

Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim said earlier that some of the 1,100 supporters who had fled the mosque and seminary told officials that Ghazi retreated to a cellar along with 20 female "hostages" and that the holdouts had "large quantities of automatic weapons." Officials said the militants also had hand grenades, explosives and homemade gasoline bombs.

Azim said there would be no more negotiations.

"Enough time has already been wasted. It has to be total, unconditional surrender," he said, but added: "As long as there are women and children inside, I don't think that we will go in."

On Thursday, seven men jumped over the mosque wall and tried to escape through a storm drain, but were caught by troops, said Col. Mohammed Ali, a military spokesman. He said the seven were "part of the hard core," but provided no other details.

Since January, the clerics have defied the government by sending students to occupy a library, intimidate shopkeepers selling Western music and films and kidnap alleged prostitutes and police officers as part of a Taliban-style anti-vice campaign.

In his TV interview, the gray-bearded Aziz, still dressed in a burqa, said that his mosque has "a relationship of love and affection with all jihadist organizations" but that it maintains no actual links with such groups.

"We have no militants; we only had students. If somebody came from outside, I have no information on that," he said. He denied responsibility for calls Tuesday from the mosque's loudspeakers for suicide attacks.

Officials said Aziz and Ghazi would be put on trial on more than 25 charges including kidnapping, incitement to murder and arms offenses, while women, children and males not involved in crimes were being granted amnesty.

Students emerging from the mosque Thursday said the morale of those who remained was good, and many stressed that they left only at the insistence of worried parents.

"They are in high spirits," Mehboob Waly said after exiting to meet his waiting father.

Mohammed Naveed, a teenager who responded to his mother's pleas for him to leave, said: "I came out with a heavy heart. I was scared to be inside, but I was also scared to come out."

Like many of the mosque's students, both are from northwestern Pakistan, an impoverished region where radical Islam is strong.

It seems inevitable that a military operation will take place. And unfortunately large scale assaults like these have never ended greatly (Beslan, Waco, the Kaaba incident in 1979, etc.) Any ideas as to what may or may not happen?

FuManChu · 07-05-2007

A different story:

Pakistan cleric offers surrender

Finn McCool · 07-05-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuManChu

A different story:

Pakistan cleric offers surrender

It seems to me that these "militants" offered reasonable surrender terms and the government rejected them. I think Musharraf is trying to portray himself as the only thing saving Pakistan from Taliban style rule. It seems to me that the rejection of this offer was intended to prolong the crisis so that Musharraf can enhance his own "tough on fundamentalism" credentials and at the same time draw public attention to bearded radicals with guns. It makes him look good in comparison. What grinds my gears is that the headline on the story is "Militants snub surrender call" when really it was the other way around.

crazyinsane105 · 07-05-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

It seems to me that these "militants" offered reasonable surrender terms and the government rejected them. I think Musharraf is trying to portray himself as the only thing saving Pakistan from Taliban style rule. It seems to me that the rejection of this offer was intended to prolong the crisis so that Musharraf can enhance his own "tough on fundamentalism" credentials and at the same time draw public attention to bearded radicals with guns. It makes him look good in comparison. What grinds my gears is that the headline on the story is "Militants snub surrender call" when really it was the other way around.

Problem is that they were offered a way out even before the shooting began. The Pakistani goverment actually spent six months trying to negotiate with these guys. The negotitations were very very long and well documented, but the clerics and their die hard supporters wanted nothing less than a full Taliban style state in Pakistan. The militants were the ones that opened fire on the military, thus effectively declaring hostilities. These guys were given six months to make up their mind, but now once the rope is being tightened around their necks are they are wanting to surrender. They don't want to be arrested or face any type of prosecution for their actions. Following their demands will only embolden other cults as the punishment is not severe at all. A lesson needs to be made out of these folks so other groups will think a hundred times before trying to pull this stupid stunt.

FuManChu · 07-06-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

What grinds my gears is that the headline on the story is "Militants snub surrender call" when really it was the other way around.

But they're the criminals - why do they get to put conditions down on their surrender? They should give themselves up like anyone else.

bd popeye · 07-06-2007

Unfortunatley the whole incident may end in a bloddy battle with innocents killed along with the guilty..

Quote:

Pakistani Ranger reads a newspaper during a calm moment in the battle between Taliban-style militants and Pakistan army rangers in Islamabad, Pakistan, on 06 July 2007. Lal Masjid clerics took thousands of students hostage and wanted to impose strict Islamic sharia law all over the country. Earlier they burned DVD's, kidnapped policemen and Chinese massage parlour workers in the capital. EPA/OLIVIER MATTHYS

2nd pic...Pakistani paramilitary soldiers escort religious students of besieged Red Mosque who surrendered to authorities in Islamabad Pakistan 06 July 2007. Hardcore militants in Islamabad Friday prepared their wills as security forces tightened the stranglehold on a besieged mosque where they have been holed up for the last four days. Authorities were confirming 19 casualties, including two soldiers and one journalist, in the four-day standoff. The extremist administration of the mosque has been in a standoff with the authorities for the past five months over its attempts to impose a strict, Taliban-style way of life on the citizens of the Pakistani capital based on Islamic sharia law. EPA/T. MUGHAL

bd popeye · 07-06-2007

More pictures of Pakistani forces during the siege...

Pakistan rangers in armed personnel carriers (APC) close in on the Red Mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan, on 05 July 2007. Over 600 Pakistani Taliban supporting female and male students have so far surrendered to the rangers Two days and nights long shootout left at least 14 dead and over 100 injured. The Lal Masjid is completely surrounded and a curfew is imposed around its neighborhood. Hardliners are still resisting and return fire. EPA/OLIVIER MATTHYS

4th picture,... Pakistani paramilitary soldiers arrest religious students who were trying to escape the beseiged Red Mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan, 05 July 2007. Pakistani security forces launched successive warning assaults on a besieged mosque in the centre of Islamabad after hardcore militant students ignored government calls for unconditional surrender.

Finn McCool · 07-06-2007

I can't see this situation ending well, either for the those inside the mosque or Pakistan at large. It seems likely that this will end in a battle. Similarly, it seems that Pakistan's problems with radical Islam and civil unrest there will only increase as the Musharraf government continues to weaken. Given the examples on display throughout the Middle East, it seems unlikely that Pakistani civil society and moderates, so long beaten down by the military government, will be able to stand up to the Islamists. Which is why it seems that the Army will continue to keep control and play the moderates/political parties off against the Islamists. However the Islamists in Pakistan are no longer simply a tool of the Army and the ISI as this present situation shows.

maglomanic · 07-07-2007

It seems the situation has turned into a hostage drama. It is being said that there are afghans and uzbuks among the die hard fighters inside the mosque who are stopping the students from leaving and might even have forced the alleged mosque leader into toeing their line. His brother the actual head of the mosque was arrested trying to run away wearing ladies' burka. Both the brothers have been lying and showing stubborness for past six months.

The govt has moved in very intelligently. Over 1100 students have come out. there are still few hundred inside and their parents have tried to bring them but they were pushed back by the militants, which is why it is being said that this has turned into a hostage situation. Then the ones who have come out told about forced incarceration.

The strategy seems to be that the militants are being provked into using up all their supplies and constant pressure without really pushing them to wall. the deadlines have been increased time and againand all that has resulted in mass evacuations of students.

regarding the Pakistanis reaction to al this drama? Well overwhleming majority has turned against these mullahs and their madaresah system. If you could watch what is being shown in Pakistani media (which is not toeing govt's position at all), most people are showing great anger against these militants and supporting govt on this.

flyzies · 07-07-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyinsane105

Problem is that they were offered a way out even before the shooting began. The Pakistani goverment actually spent six months trying to negotiate with these guys. The negotitations were very very long and well documented, but the clerics and their die hard supporters wanted nothing less than a full Taliban style state in Pakistan. The militants were the ones that opened fire on the military, thus effectively declaring hostilities. These guys were given six months to make up their mind, but now once the rope is being tightened around their necks are they are wanting to surrender. They don't want to be arrested or face any type of prosecution for their actions. Following their demands will only embolden other cults as the punishment is not severe at all. A lesson needs to be made out of these folks so other groups will think a hundred times before trying to pull this stupid stunt.

Very well said...
A country's leadership should never give in to the demands of terrorists...domestic or foreign. Period.
Giving the terrorists what they want will only cause them to do the same thing again next time they're after something...

bd popeye · 07-08-2007

I've found some more pictures of the situation in Pakistan..I think the government of Pakisatin has been very patient over this whole matter for some time. Time is running out for the radicals.

1) In this photo released by the Press Information Department shows an aerial view of Lal masjid or Red mosque and seminary Jamia Hafsa, Sunday, July 8, 2007 in Islamabad, Pakistan. Pakistan's army tried to blast through the wall of a besieged radical Islamic seminary early Sunday to help free hostages held by a cleric and his militant supporters, leaving one commando dead, an official said.

2 & 3) A Pakistani paramilitary soldier laid barbed wire on a dessert street in front of the besieged Red Mosque during a curfew in Islamabad, 08 July 2007. Islamic militants from a group linked to Al-Qaeda and to the murder of Daniel Pearl are believed to be leading hold-outs at a Pakistani mosque. President Pervez Musharraf has warned the militants to surrender or be killed.

4 & 5) Pakistan paramilitary troops arrive at 'Lal Masjid,' or Red Mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan Thursday, July 5, 2007. Troops carry ammunition and other items. A radical cleric captured by security forces while fleeing in a woman's burqa said Thursday that the nearly 1,000 followers still inside his government besieged radical mosque in Pakistan's capital claimed that government forces have killed more than 70 of his terrorist students, saying he and his supporters prefer martyrdom to capture.

crazyinsane105 · 07-08-2007

Haroon-ul-Islam Shaheed, a senior commander of the Pakistani military SSG (Special Services Group) received shahadat during the military operation against Lal Masjid. He is survived by two daughters and a wife.

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/Archive&Press...onth/press.htm

May this great warrior rest in peace. And may the murderers who killed him face the wraith of justice...

bd popeye · 07-10-2007

The Pakistani Army has stormed the Mosque. Early reports that 40+ have been killed.

Quote:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...V&SECTION=HOME

Jul 10, 10:33 AM EDT

Chief cleric killed at Pakistan mosque

By ZARAR KHAN
Associated Press Writer

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) -- The chief cleric of the Red Mosque was killed Tuesday as Pakistani troops flushed out entrenched militants inside a women's religious school in room by room fighting, state-run television said.

Pakistan Television quoted the Interior Ministry as saying that the radical cleric, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, died during the attack. Two security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the press, said Ghazi's body was found in the basement.

Commandos stormed the sprawling mosque compound before dawn. Twelve hours later, the army said the complex was 80 percent cleared of militants but it was still trying to root out well-armed defenders the government accuses of holding a number of hostages. A local relief agency said the army asked for 400 white funeral shrouds.

The extremists had been using the mosque as a base to send out radicalized students to enforce their version of Islamic morality, including abducting alleged prostitutes and trying to "re-educate" them at the mosque.

Khalid Pervez, the city's top administrator, said as many as 50 women were the first to be freed by the militants and had emerged from the complex following the escape of 26 children.

Mohammed Khalid Jamil, a reporter for the local Aaj television network, was among journalists who said they saw dozens of women and girls walking on a road away from the mosque. They were wearing burqas, he said.

A military official who demande because he was not authorized to speak to the press, said the women included the wife and daughter of Abdul Aziz, the former head of the mosque who was arrested while trying to flee the complex last week.

It was not clear how many noncombatants were being held hostage or were staying behind because they believed in the mosque's cause. Last week, a number of those who left the mosque, including young women, said their colleagues were there of their own free will and prepared to die.

Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Waheed Arshad said hostages were still being held and that fighting was intense: "We are fighting room by room." He added that stun grenades were being used to avoid casualties among the hostages.

Abdul Sattar Edhi, head of the private relief agency Edhi Foundation, told reporters that the army had asked him to prepare 400 white shrouds used for covering the dead.

The siege of one of the capital's most prominent mosques was prompted by clashes last Tuesday between security forces and supporters of the mosque's hardline clerics. More than 80 people have been killed in the fighting since July 3.

The vigilante anti-vice campaign has proved an embarrassment to President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a key U.S. ally in its war on terror, and underlined his administration's failure to control extremist religious schools.

But a major loss of life at the Red Mosque could further turn public opinion against the president, who already faces mounting opposition for his bungled attempts to fire the country's chief justice.

Arshad said about 50 militants have been killed in Tuesday's assault, while eight soldiers had died and 29 were wounded.

To protest the siege, more than 100 armed tribesmen and religious students near the northwestern town of Batagram temporarily blocked a road that leads to neighboring China, police officials said.

And in the eastern city of Multan, more than 500 Islamic religious school students rallied, chanting "Down with Musharraf" and blocking a main road by burning tires.

The U.S. Embassy recommended that Americans in Pakistan to limit their movement in the area of the northwestern city of Peshawar, warning that "terrorist elements" were threatening attacks on Pakistani government, police and army institutions in retaliation for the Red Mosque siege.

After efforts to negotiate a surrender failed, commandos attacked from three directions about 4 a.m. and quickly cleared the ground floor of the mosque, Arshad said. Some 20 children who rushed toward the advancing troops were brought to safety, he said.

Besides the women, Arshad said about 50 suspected militants, some of them youngsters, have been captured or emerged from the mosque since fighting began Tuesday.

Arshad said the army attack was now focused on the women's school but that some militants were still firing from the tops of the mosque's minarets. He said the entire compound included 75 rooms, large basements and expansive courtyards. About 80 percent of it had been cleared, he said.

An officer, who demanded anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the press, said troops had cornered the mosque's chief cleric, Abdul Rashid Ghazi, in the basement of the school but held back from an all-out assault because a number of children were being held there as hostages.

Troops demanded four times that he surrender, but his followers responded with gunfire, and Ghazi said he was ready to die rather than give up, the officer said.

Arshad said the well-trained militants were armed with machine guns, rocket launchers and gasoline bombs and had booby-trapped some areas.

"Those who surrender will be arrested, but the others will be treated as combatants and killed," he said.

Pakistan's Religious Affairs Minister Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq said foreign militants were among those fighting with the mosque defenders, quoting Ghazi.

Ghazi told the private Geo TV network in a telephone interview about two hours after Tuesday's assault began that his mother had been wounded by gunshot. One of Ghazi's aides, Abdul Rahman, later said she had died.

"The government is using full force. This is naked aggression," he said. "My martyrdom is certain now."

crazyinsane105 · 07-10-2007

The chief cleric of Lal Masjid has been killed. Casualties among Pakistani forces: 9 SSG operatives killed and nearly 18 wounded.

Violet Oboe · 07-10-2007

The indian press is full of glee about a Pakistan sinking deeper and deeper... once the elite commandos of the Pakistan Army were trained for taking the Lal Qala (the red fort in Delhi) now they are taking carnage to the Lal Masjid in the heart of Islamabad.

Several papers are even suggesting that Pakistan will disintegrate soon and that India could ´manage´a dismemberment into three new statelets like India had accomplished the secession of Bangladesh back in 1971. Currently Pakistan is in a very bad situation and certain people in India and the West are rubbing their hands since a destruction of the Pakistani state would give them the chance to ´iraqisize´Pakistan and destroy Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure (India would perhaps be happy to oblige and take over the nuclear stockpile).

The only reliable friend of Pakistan for more than 40 years has been China and as long as Musharraf ignores this fact by continuing his pact with Washington and London he is bringing the entire nation in great peril. Most ´terror experts´in the West maintain without any hesitation that Pakistan is the real center of global terrorism. Correspondingly they see the Pakistani military forces and the ISI as a part of the problem and not of the solution and consequently the US in cahoots with India is currently trying to ´reform´ the military (i.e. removing islamic and nationalist officers and replacing them with pro-western guys) but if this plan does not succeed they will resort to other means like dismembering Pakistan. (Pakistan would probably collapse without a strong and independent Army and Washington and New Delhi are fully aware of this ...

)

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