SinoDefence Forum

crazyinsane105 · 07-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violet Oboe

The indian press is full of glee about a Pakistan sinking deeper and deeper... once the elite commandos of the Pakistan Army were trained for taking the Lal Qala (the red fort in Delhi) now they are taking carnage to the Lal Masjid in the heart of Islamabad.

Several papers are even suggesting that Pakistan will disintegrate soon and that India could ´manage´a dismemberment into three new statelets like India had accomplished the secession of Bangladesh back in 1971. Currently Pakistan is in a very bad situation and certain people in India and the West are rubbing their hands since a destruction of the Pakistani state would give them the chance to ´iraqisize´Pakistan and destroy Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure (India would perhaps be happy to oblige and take over the nuclear stockpile).

The only reliable friend of Pakistan for more than 40 years has been China and as long as Musharraf ignores this fact by continuing his pact with Washington and London he is bringing the entire nation in great peril. Most ´terror experts´in the West maintain without any hesitation that Pakistan is the real center of global terrorism. Correspondingly they see the Pakistani military forces and the ISI as a part of the problem and not of the solution and consequently the US in cahoots with India is currently trying to ´reform´ the military (i.e. removing islamic and nationalist officers and replacing them with pro-western guys) but if this plan does not succeed they will resort to other means like dismembering Pakistan. (Pakistan would probably collapse without a strong and independent Army and Washington and New Delhi are fully aware of this ...

)

Right now there is NO symphaty for the Lal Masjid lunatics in Pakistan right now. As a matter of fact the Karachi Stock Market has hit new record levels every since the operation commenced. I really don't understand why the Indian media is so happy about this when just yesterday, 23 Indian soldiers were killed when fighting Maoist rebels, a rebellion that is getting bigger every year. This whole thing about Pakistan collapsing has been said ever since 9/11, but every year we see more investments being made in Pakistan. Now why would investors invest in a country that is on the brink of collapse? There is bigger outrage because of the CJ issue than there is because of this Islamic extremist issue. Very few people in Pakistan support Islamic fundamentalists and ever since 9/11, radical Islam in Pakistan is growing weaker.

Violet Oboe · 07-10-2007

In no way my intention was to indicate that this kind of fundamentalist fanatics is currently very popular in Pakistan or that the Army was wrong to take action after a certain red line was crossed by them.

Moreover I wanted to point out that Musharraf has handled the crisis badly and that he could have avoided that much bloodshed if he had acted timely on information and advice from ISI.

The central problem is that Musharraf has to take the new and very menacing Washington - New-Delhi alliance into consideration!
Crazyinsane, you have correctly mentioned the dangerous Naxalite rebels killing indian police and military nearly every day and currently controlling parts of nine union states. Nevertheless the ´Red Mosque´and other incidents of extremism in Pakistan are making the headlines in the West and Naxalites, Maoists and other dangerous developments (e.g. rampant organized crime de facto controlling Mumbai) in India are intentionally ignored completely by the western media. The reason is quite simple: they want to exert pressure on Pakistan for achieving regime change! Benazir Bhutto is already waiting behind the curtains to restore her corrupt pseudo democratic regime, disrupt Pakistans strategic alliance with China, sell the nuclear program down the river and turning the Army into mercenaries fighting dirty wars for a purely american cause!

Crazy, I suggest that you may read the indian press (The Hindu e.g) more regularly. After all you might get a glimpse of how India is systematically expanding her power in south asia and planning a 1971 redux!

crazyinsane105 · 07-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violet Oboe

In no way my intention was to indicate that this kind of fundamentalist fanatics is currently very popular in Pakistan or that the Army was wrong to take action after a certain red line was crossed by them.

Moreover I wanted to point out that Musharraf has handled the crisis badly and that he could have avoided that much bloodshed if he had acted timely on information and advice from ISI.

The central problem is that Musharraf has to take the new and very menacing Washington - New-Delhi alliance into consideration!
Crazyinsane, you have correctly mentioned the dangerous Naxalite rebels killing indian police and military nearly every day and currently controlling parts of nine union states. Nevertheless the ´Red Mosque´and other incidents of extremism in Pakistan are making the headlines in the West and Naxalites, Maoists and other dangerous developments (e.g. rampant organized crime de facto controlling Mumbai) in India are intentionally ignored completely by the western media. The reason is quite simple: they want to exert pressure on Pakistan for achieving regime change! Benazir Bhutto is already waiting behind the curtains to restore her corrupt pseudo democratic regime, disrupt Pakistans strategic alliance with China, sell the nuclear program down the river and turning the Army into mercenaries fighting dirty wars for a purely american cause!

Crazy, I suggest that you may read the indian press (The Hindu e.g) more regularly. After all you might get a glimpse of how India is systematically expanding her power in south asia and planning a 1971 redux!

Unfortunately, large scale hostage crisis like the one in Lal Masjid never have a happy ending. Had Musharraf acted before, there would be many many more coffins (nearly 2,000 people surrendered before the major offensive was launched).

Not sure you've ever been to Pakistan, but just wondering: how confident are you that Ms. Benazair will ever come to power in Pakistan? Right now the US is giving absolutely no support to the PPP. She was outright ignored by both the Democrat and the Republicans just a few months earlier. Its because of her that Islamic radicals fostered in Pakistan as she turned a blind eye towards them and her corrupt government forced people to turn to the radicals for relief. The West isn't about to support her or Nawaz Sharif. The West is more concerned about the rise of Islamic radicalism than they are about Pakistan's strategic ambitions. And even if they do support her, will the Pakistani military even allow her to step foot on soil? The military is totally against her agenda and she'll either be thrown in jail or hung like her father. The scenario you're panting is one that didn't happen during the time of Benzair's reign of power. Unless the Pakistani military is somehow dismantled, then yes your scenario would be viable. But that's not necessarily the case.

Both Pakistan and India have their strategic ambitions and hurdles. Best way for both countries to succeed would be to cooperate with each other rather than playing a dirty blame game (which the medias in both countries are to be blamed). Now, let's get back at the topic in hand, shall we?

Latest reports is that there are nearly 1,000 dead....

Violet Oboe · 07-11-2007

Yes the next days will be full of mourning after this awful carnage and we should respect the dead in silence...

Crazy, I read your last post with some kind of surprise and I would suggest that you should read the book from Syed Jamaluddin ´Divide Pakistan: To Eliminate Terrorism´ which is currently widely acclaimed in indian foreign policy circles.

He proposes the dismemberment of Pakistan into five statelets and he is very confident that this would root out ´terrorism´and would radically improve relations with India! (...not all niceties in the book as he calls Musharraf a ´terrorist in uniform´who needs to be eliminated...

)
Indeed as his main priority is a new symbiotic albeit somewhat ´skewed´ relationship with India, I thought (please forgive if I am wrong...

) perhaps you know Syed Jamaluddin or at least his works?

bd popeye · 07-11-2007

India Vs. Pakistan discussions never go very far gentlemen.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now back to the seige itself..

1 & 2) Pakistani soldiers rush to besieged Red Mosque as the security forces launch final assault 'Operation Silence' against Islamist militants holed up in besieged Red Mosque in Islamabad Pakistan 10 July 2007. Pakistan's security forces claimed to have rescued some 80 hostages being held by Islamic militants as death toll in the fight rose to 58, including Mosques deputy administrator Abdul Rashid Ghazi and eight soldiers. EPA/T. MUGHAL

3,4,& 5) Pakistani Army spokesman Major General Waheed Arshad (L) and Interior Ministry's spokesman Javed Cheema (R) talk with journalists during the security forces launch final assault 'Operation Silence' against Islamist militants holed up in besieged Red Mosque in Islamabad Pakistan 10 July 2007. Pakistan's security forces claimed to have rescued some 80 hostages being held by Islamic militants as death toll in the fight were 58, including Mosques deputy administrator Abdul Rashid Ghazi and eight soldiers. EPA/T. MUGHAL

crazyinsane105 · 07-11-2007

Clean-up operations are in progress. Major fighting in the mosque is over now. Looks like up 80 people have been killed, not 1000 (yet why were all those white shrouds ordered?). Now I think Musharraf may start targeting other madarssas in Pakistan. About damn time I say...

bd popeye · 07-11-2007

I found this map of the Mosque. It may give a general Idea on what actually occuried during the PA attack.

maglomanic · 07-12-2007

The SSG operators who laid down their lives in the operation.

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