SinoDefence Forum

Student · 10-03-2009

It is a personal opinion but i may be wrong. PAF should have bought the J-10 in greater quantity and should have dumped the not so capable JF-17. PAF buying J-10 in quantity would have bought the serial cost down as well. 120 J-10 would have been a lot better than having 275 JF-17. My point is that you can fight with less swords but you certainly cannont defend with lots of chopsticks. Happy 60 years of progress to china.

Lion · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student

It is a personal opinion but i may be wrong. PAF should have bought the J-10 in greater quantity and should have dumped the not so capable JF-17. PAF buying J-10 in quantity would have bought the serial cost down as well. 120 J-10 would have been a lot better than having 275 JF-17. My point is that you can fight with less swords but you certainly cannont defend with lots of chopsticks. Happy 60 years of progress to china.

U must take into consideration Pakistan limited defence budget.

J-10 is far more expensive per unit given the bigger and more expensive AL-31F engines. Pakistan AF intend to replace all its A-5, Mirage III with something cheaper price unit. They need to have 250units to do the replacing.

I don't even think PLAAF operate 250 J-10units at the moment.

JF-17 is the best option for them. Plus , AVIC agreed to do the technology transfer which Pakistan is able to learn alot of aircraft manufacturing thru this project and at the same time replace most of its aging air fleet.

It's killing 2 birds with a stone. If Pakistan is able to market successful FC-1 together with AVIC. It may even earn a small fortune to subsidise its JF-17 fleet.

JF-17 is not a bad bird after all. I saw some CCTV video of FC-1 going thru test and real air flight. It has some stunning performance of short and steep take off. Sharp turn and high maneouvre. More or less can give u some info on how good these plane is.

One Pakistan Test pilot even comment JF-17 is as good as F-16A in aerial performance.

vesicles · 10-04-2009

I don't doubt that PAF would like to have J-10s. Heck, if given the option, China would definitely like to have some F-22s. But the key question here is whether the country with these advanced weapons want to sell them. Obviously, J-10 is the most advanced fighter that China has. It's hard to imagine that China would allow any other nation, ally or not, to fly its precious bird.

So don't blame PAF for not being able to get J-10s. It's not their fault that China doesn't want to sell. You should blame China for being too "protective"

Student · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student

I don't doubt that PAF would like to have J-10s. Heck, if given the option, China would definitely want some F-22s. But the key question here is whether the country with these advanced weapons want to sell them. Obviously, J-10 is the most advanced fighter that China has. It's hard to imagine that China would allow any other nation, ally or not, to fly its precious bird.

So don't blame PAF for not being able to get J-10s. You should blame China for being to "protective

Pakistan have already done a deal for the delivery of 36 J-10 by 2014-15. plus when pervaiz musharraf visited china he was shown both JF-17 and J-10 and he also sat in the copit of both of them hope it clear the situation for you.

AssassinsMace · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

I don't doubt that PAF would like to have J-10s. Heck, if given the option, China would definitely like to have some F-22s. But the key question here is whether the country with these advanced weapons want to sell them. Obviously, J-10 is the most advanced fighter that China has. It's hard to imagine that China would allow any other nation, ally or not, to fly its precious bird.

So don't blame PAF for not being able to get J-10s. It's not their fault that China doesn't want to sell. You should blame China for being too "protective"

Depending on what you want to believe that's publish on the internet or otherwise, it says the PAF will eventually get J-10s. And what I've read is Pakistani pilots have flown in them. J-10 for export seems to be only a matter of time.

vesicles · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by AssassinsMace

Depending on what you want to believe that's publish on the internet or otherwise, it says the PAF will eventually get J-10s. And what I've read is Pakistani pilots have flown in them. J-10 for export seems to be only a matter of time.

It seems whenever the news about exporting J-10 comes out, it's the PAF that's making the claim. I've never seen any PLA confirmation on these claims. So who knows...

Baibar of Jalat · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

It seems whenever the news about exporting J-10 comes out, it's the PAF that's making the claim. I've never seen any PLA confirmation on these claims. So who knows...

Any claims to deny it? Politics is bigger, overrules everything else. Remember PLA is subservent to CCP.

Found this article on China Defence Blog, it is not 100% proof but it added more fuel on the debate.

China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters

Quote:

China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

"While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.

"While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.

In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.

"Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.

Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.

The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.

"The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.

Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.

Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.

vesicles · 10-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baibar of Jalat

The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

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As I suggested, people want to buy, but seller not interested in selling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baibar of Jalat

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.

As suggested in the article, China will only sell J-10A once PLA gets something better (J-10B in this case) and J-10A is no longer the best they got. This also seems to agree with my original rational, which is China will not sell their best fighter to others. Note that my original argument was not J-10-specific, but about whether a nation would allow another nation to have possession of their best weapon (that's why I also gave the example of China wanting F-22).

Delbert · 10-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

As I suggested, people want to buy, but seller not interested in selling.

Was the J-10 really that cutting edge plane? For China to keep it on its own? If I am not mistaken, they had already signed a deal with Pakistan and is going to sell it.

vesicles · 10-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delbert

Was the J-10 really that cutting edge plane? For China to keep it on its own? If I am not mistaken, they had already signed a deal with Pakistan and is going to sell it.

What else do you in mind? J-10B? It's still in the testing stage, definitely not fielded yet. Based on what I understand, J-10A is the top-of-line fighter in service with PLAAF and the pride of Chinese aviation industry NOW. And according to the article quoted above, it is NOT for sell.

Student · 10-05-2009

The first foreign buyer of the J-10A will be Pakistan, a source from the Chinese aviation industry said. In March, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshall Tanvir MehmoodAhmed confirmed that a deal with China had been reached, and the aircraft would be delivered in 2014 and 2015. The version for Pakistan will be called the FC-20. UPI Asia. (Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada. John Wu is a reporter for the same magazine.)

Student · 10-05-2009

The first foreign buyer of the J-10A will be Pakistan, a source from the Chinese aviation industry said. In March, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshall Tanvir MehmoodAhmed confirmed that a deal with China had been reached, and the aircraft would be delivered in 2014 and 2015. The version for Pakistan will be called the FC-20. UPI Asia. (Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada. John Wu is a reporter for the same magazine.)

Delbert · 10-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by vesicles

What else do you in mind? J-10B? It's still in the testing stage, definitely not fielded yet. Based on what I understand, J-10A is the top-of-line fighter in service with PLAAF and the pride of Chinese aviation industry NOW. And according to the article quoted above, it is NOT for sell.

I mean was it a cutting edge plane if placed in the world arena? For China not to sell it?

Ofcourse I know its a great achievement by aviation industry in China.

The deal have been signed with Pakistan! Try to search on the internet, its everywhere. How do you say its not for sale?

druid84 · 10-05-2009

Well i'm sure when Pakistan buys J-10 it will be a big help to their airforce to help deal with the Indians and their superb Su 30 MKI, but, the JF-17 is a big step up for Pakistanis to help replace their outdated planes and a boost to their economy by giving them knowlede about how to build and design fighter planes, hats off to them for the effort.

taimikhan · 10-05-2009

First of the PAF designation for J-10 is FC-20 & the specifications told about it by no other then PAF Cief himself are much more advanced then the current configuration the operational J-10s have as this aircraft is going to come around 2014-2015 in PAF service, enough time of about 5 years to upgrade the J-10 to a true 4.5th gen capability.

" ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements."[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.
.
The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan. ACM Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received"

ASIAN DEFENCE: Interview: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan Air Force Chief of the Air Staff

Further Reading: Interview: Chief of the PAF talks about military cooperation with China |China Military Power Mashup

And the reason for PAF to go for JF-17 is it needs to have medium tech & high tech combination as no air force in the world is fully equipped with high tech planes only, these is always a combination of medium-high tech aircrafts & PAF main focus is IAF as an adversary, we have to counter them. Plus, the true capability of JF-17 in terms of its fighting potential is still not revealed & it has much much room for further improvements & upgrades. Western Avionics are still on the table for it & engine change a possibility too. JF-17 has a very promising potential to become a true high tech aircraft in future.

PAF & China are not stupids to have gone with JF-17 when J-10 was around, there must be some reason to it, which the people at PAF & China understand better then all of us over here speculating.

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