Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

i don't think anyone is too surprised by this news, but it's out now.

Nov. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Navy said today it is
canceling General Dynamics Corp.'s contract to build a second
ship in a new class of warships.
Negotiations over the Navy's demand that General Dynamics
assume more risk for cost overruns broke down, Navy Secretary
Donald Winter said.
``While this is a difficult decision, we recognize that
active oversight and strict cost controls in the early years are
necessary to insuring we can deliver these ships to the fleet
over the long term,'' Winter said in a statement issued at the
U.S. Defense Department.
General Dynamics, the Navy's second-largest shipbuilder, and
Lockheed Martin Corp., the world's biggest defense company by
sales, are building competing versions of the new ship, called
the Littoral Combat Ship. Costs for developing the vessel have
increased as much as 70 percent, Navy officials have said.
Each was under contract to build two prototypes. Each has
its first ship under construction, and both are experiencing
significant cost overruns.
The Navy canceled Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed's
contract for a second ship in April after costs rose almost 50
percent on its first craft and Lockheed refused to accept a fixed
price incentive contract for the second.

`In Excess'

General Dynamics offered a fixed-price-incentive contract
that would have assumed more responsibility for overruns, but the
price it offered ``was above the number we were willing to
accept,'' Rear Admiral Charles Goddard, told reporters at the
Pentagon. ``Their offer was in excess'' by a ``significant''
amount, he said.
``We hope and expect General Dynamics and its team members
will compete'' to build other ships in what's planned to be a 55-
vessel fleet, said Goddard, who oversees surface-ship programs.
Jim DeMartini, spokesman for General Dynamics, said the
company's offer ``reflected realistic cost estimates.''
``We are disappointed that the Navy has decided to reject
the proposal,'' but ``remain focused on completing'' the first
ship and ``delivering the most-capable, most-affordable ship we
can,'' he said in an e-mailed statement.
General Dynamics received the contract for the first ship in
October 2005 and the contract for the second in December 2006.
Its craft is 417 feet (127 meters) long and features three
parallel hulls. The design, called a trimaran hull, makes the
vessel more stable, allowing for helicopter takeoffs and landings
in rough waters.
The design is based on one from Australia-based Austal Ltd.
General Dynamics is supervising construction of the first ship at
an Austal shipyard in Mobile, Alabama.

I wonder what plan they are going to replace this with.

Originally Posted by tphuang

i don't think anyone is too surprised by this news, but it's out now.

I wonder what plan they are going to replace this with.

How knows? This is really going to set this program way back. The USN is now saddled with ships that will have no sisters. And what kind of tech support will the USN get on these "White Elephants"???..

The USN will probaly have to neogiate with another shipbuilder. But who?? Not many warship builders in the US. The USN needs to act immediatley now to resolve this problem.

Question..Will the USN go overseas to get these much needed ships built? can anyone say BAE???

I think Israel voiced interest in a more traditional corvette/ light frigate LCS-I version of the LM design lately. Maybe this can help secure funding for the future program. Finally this may/should be the point to turn to one design (the LM one) and stick with it. "Internationalizing" it is a chance.
I guess BAE would like to jump in, but only for the foreign market. (US, Israel...)

Originally Posted by bd popeye

How knows? This is really going to set this program way back. The USN is now saddled with ships that will have no sisters. And what kind of tech support will the USN get on these "White Elephants"???..

The USN will probaly have to neogiate with another shipbuilder. But who?? Not many warship builders in the US. The USN needs to act immediatley now to resolve this problem.

Question..Will the USN go overseas to get these much needed ships built? can anyone say BAE???

South Koreans? Very far-fetching idea, but they will build ships on time and on budget for sure. KDX-3 are really a great testament to their shipbuilding capabilities. Use the non-export version of Aegis and you get one of the most capable ships out there for less than $1billion each.

Bringing the LCS saga to topic again, there's one issue that consistently makes the news, money.
A DID report says the costs for the first two ships, excluding mission modules, is now $631M and $636M respectively.
Also interesting is, that the first FFG-7 cost $650M in 2008 $, wich, on a $/tonne basis, would mean $575M for the LCS. It's still more than that.
And LCS aren't really uparmed ships, wich already has led to controversies over their capabilities.
So, I can still not see a definite solution ahead. The navy might be running short of servicable ships rather soon. Not a good lookout.

On another note -also according to DID- the Israeli Navy is looking at the LM LCS design for two future ships wich it intents to buy.
Because the IN would require the ships to provide for their own defense against different threats, they might drop the swappable mission modules for a much better armed LCS-I ship.
SPY-1F radar and Mk41 VLS.
There's no deeper talks to that, but the IN has now issued a request for proposals to the USN.

That would make Israel the first LCS export customer, lets see if LM can produce it at a sensible price.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Who knows? This is really going to set this program way back. The USN is now saddled with ships that will have no sisters.

Popeye and Tphuang, I do not believe that this means that the entire program will be cancelled at all. It means that each designer is now going to build one of the initial batch instead of two and that the Navy will choose between these individual ships, or make a decision to go woith some number of both.

In the end, the LCS program, IMHO, will go ahead and many ships of one or the other...or a split number of both...will still be built.

In those numbers the Navy will expect that the costs get in line with the number to be built.

Either way, if one or the other builds fifty, or if they both build twenty-five or whatever, the LCS cost will reduce because of the large number to be built and the LCS will go forward.

But that is just my opinion.

BTW, here's a couple of pics of the USS Freedom as she continues to outfit, to be commissioned in the fall of 2008.

Popeye and Tphuang, I do not believe that this means that the entire program will be cancelled at all. It means that each designer is now going to build one of the initial batch instead of two and that the Navy will choose between these individual ships, or make a decision to go woith some number of both.

True enough..Recently(last month) the USN CNO visited PCU LCS-3 Freedom. A certain member of this forum(who shall go unnamed) seems to think this is a failed program. Ain't happenin'!


Download HiRes

MARINETTE, Wis. (Jan. 14, 2008) Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Gary Roughead takes a tour of Marinette Marine Shipyard. The eight-day trip also included a tour of the pre-commissioning unit littoral combat ship (LCS) Freedom. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Tiffini M. Jones (Released)

I commented on this on Galarhn's blog, but it sort of dawned on me that the first 2 LCS's cost added together is going to cost more than the cost of the entire 022 fleet. Which is mind blowing considering how many 022s there are.

The problem is USN kept on changing specs, asked for too much capability and you ended up with cost overruns. And of course, the other problem is that Lockmart shouldn't be building ships. It can't build anything on budget. Let Grumman do the job.

I commented on this on Galarhn's blog, but it sort of dawned on me that the first 2 LCS's cost added together is going to cost more than the cost of the entire 022 fleet. Which is mind blowing considering how many 022s there are.

It's not you tphuang...I will not mention the name...

C'mon tphuang There is no comparison between those two class of vessels. None. The 022 is a partol missile boat with a diffrent mission than an LCS. Nothing more.

The problem is USN kept on changing specs, asked for too much capability and you ended up with cost overruns. And of course, the other problem is that Lockmart shouldn't be building ships. It can't build anything on budget. Let Grumman do the job.

Love that term Lockmart...

Your above comment is 100% correct. Hopefully the new CNO will get the program back on track.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

It's not you tphuang...I will not mention the name...

C'mon tphuang There is no comparison between those two class of vessels. None. The 022 is a partol missile boat with a diffrent mission than an LCS. Nothing more.



Love that term Lockmart...

Your above comment is 100% correct. Hopefully the new CNO will get the program back on track.

Not saying there is any comparison between the two vessels. But just an indication of how much extra USN is paying to have a navy that's suppose to be able go anywhere and fight in any condition compared to a navy that's more focused around the shores.

And how much cheaper the cost is when you decide on the ship design and mass produce it.

I also do not intent to imply the programm will fail. It's an inconvenience of a bigger problem wihin the USN/ US defence industry. Aquireing new warships. I don't want the program to fail, and don't exspect it to. But the current "mishaps" are a problem in itself. It means time slippages and and brings uncertainty to other projects.
The current fleet of vessels, wich is rather stressed with missions these times is getting older every day and will gradually be retired. And there are missions out there, those ships were not ment to fullfill.

The DDX will come in low numbers at a high price, CG(X) is not even sure, and the navy wants 313 ships that should be rather up to date.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...0403&C=america

LCS Delays Could Send Fire Scout UAVs to Other Warships
...
But other senior Navy officials at the conference made clear the sea service remains dedicated to the planned buy of 55 ships.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...4349&C=america

A year ago, the Navy planned to complete the purchase of LCS ships in 2016, but it now has stretched the procurement period to 2019.
Last year’s plan showed the Navy buying 60 ships from 2009 to 2013 at a cost of $75 billion. Now the plan is to buy 47 ships for nearly the same amount, $74 billion.

I'm also wondering if an Israeli buy of two vessels would help the programm, two out of 55 is not much, and their ships might look quiet different.

Originally Posted by tphuang

Not saying there is any comparison between the two vessels. But just an indication of how much extra USN is paying to have a navy that's suppose to be able go anywhere and fight in any condition compared to a navy that's more focused around the shores.

And how much cheaper the cost is when you decide on the ship design and mass produce it.

With that statement I agree. The USN needs to get this ship in full production and stop fiddling around with the design.

The second US Navy Littoral Combat Ship, the LCS 2 USS Independence, and the General Dynamics Design thereof, was floated on April 28th and 29th.

This trimaran design is unique for US warships. It will be modular in design and has the largest helicopter landing deck for any surface combatant outside of the large amphibious ships or aircraft carriers. It also includes a RORO cargo bay, a small special operations well dock, and will be highly automated requiring a much smaller US Navy crew than other, similarly sized frigates.

Its common weapons package, common to all modular designs, includes a highly automated, rapid fire 57mm bofors cannon, 4 50. cal machine guns, and from the pictures, seems to also include a SEA RAM CIWS system on the aft end of the deck house.

The US Navy currently plans a brand new bidding process between Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics for the next three, Flight II, Littoral Combat Ships, with the winner building two more ships and the loser only one. US NAVY RESTARTING BID PROCESS FOR LCS

Here are three pics from this weeks floating and launch:

Nice post, Jeff.

Just wondering, although the LCS is not intended for high-seas use, it will still face harsh storms, especially on the Atlantic seaboard. Just how stable will either of the two versions be in such circumstances, especially for those engaged in ASW operations?