Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Originally Posted by joshuatree

Interesting comment, how do you see the GD hull as easier to maintain? I personally think the GD design will win because it seems to have a shallower draft which would tackle the main role of this class of ships better than the Lockheed design, serving in littoral areas.

Actually, and FYI, the specs of the two vessels show that the GD Trimaran has a deeper draft than the Lockheed semi-planing hull design. The GD design's draft will be at around 17ft, while the Lockheed design is at 13 ft. Probably more surface area on the bottom of that Lockheed hull to spread the weight in the water.

Interesting comment, how do you see the GD hull as easier to maintain?

The hull on the GD design while not traditional like the LM offers the USN future insight to new hull designs.

I'm no naval engineer just and old sailor!..BUT>>> I see the trimaran as more corrosin resistan simply because it will not have as much contact with the ocean forces at speed because of it's design.. The trimaran offers greater stablity than a "traditional" design therefore the equipment on board will not take as much punishment as on the LM design. Just my opinion. I could be way off base.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

Actually, and FYI, the specs of the two vessels show that the GD Trimaran has a deeper draft than the Lockheed semi-planing hull design. The GD design's draft will be at around 17ft, while the Lockheed design is at 13 ft. Probably more surface area on the bottom of that Lockheed hull to spread the weight in the water.

You're right, looks can be deceiving.

The Sec Navy Donald Winters today cancelled LCS 2. This is a real blow to the LCS program. Perhaps it is a message about extreme cost over runs and a warning to all defense contractors. I'm sure Lockheed-Martin got the message big time.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/...eleaseid=10732

Navy Terminates Littoral Combat Ship 3

Secretary of the Navy Donald C. Winter announced today that the Department of the Navy is terminating construction of the third Littoral Combat Ship (LCS 3) for convenience under the Termination clause of the contract because the Navy and Lockheed Martin could not reach agreement on the terms of a modified contract.

The Navy issued a stop-work order on construction on LCS 3 in January following a series of cost overruns on LCS 1 and projection of cost increases on LCS 3, which are being built by Lockheed Martin under a cost-plus contract. The Navy announced in March that it would consider lifting the stop-work order on LCS 3 if the Navy and Lockheed Martin could agree on the terms for a fixed price incentive agreement by mid-April. The Navy worked closely with Lockheed Martin to try to restructure the agreement for LCS-3 to more equitably balance cost and risk, but could not come to terms and conditions that were acceptable to both parties.

The Navy remains committed to completing construction on LCS 1 under the current contract with Lockheed Martin. LCS 2 and 4 are under contract with General Dynamics, and the Navy will monitor their cost performance closely. The Navy intends to continue with the plan to assess costs and capabilities of LCS 1 and LCS 2 and transition to a single seaframe configuration in fiscal year 10 after an operational assessment and considering all relevant factors. General Dynamics’ ships will continue on a cost-plus basis as long as its costs remain defined and manageable. If the cost performance becomes unacceptable, then General Dynamics will be subject to similar restructuring requirements.

“LCS continues to be a critical warfighting requirement for our Navy to maintain dominance in the littorals and strategic choke points around the world,” said Winter. “While this is a difficult decision, we recognize that active oversight and strict cost controls in the early years are necessary to ensuring we can deliver these ships to the fleet over the long term.”

Originally Posted by bd popeye

The Sec Navy Donald Winters today cancelled LCS 2. This is a real blow to the LCS program. Perhaps it is a message about extreme cost over runs and a warning to all defense contractors. I'm sure Lockheed-Martin got the message big time.

Major, major news. Did not give Lockheed too long to correct the earlier problems either. It was not too long ago that they gave them the go ahead to continue construction after the initial stop work order. Probably a whole lot more to this that we are reading.

Looking more and more like the GD design, as long as they meet the cost considerations, will probably be the LCS design. At this point, it is really seems like it is their's to lose.

Looking more and more like the GD design, as long as they meet the cost considerations, will probably be the LCS design. At this point, it is really seems like it is their's to lose.

Probally all for the better. This may evn quicken the pace that the USN recieves LCS. And having to deal with a single hull will make maintance much easier.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Probally all for the better. This may evn quicken the pace that the USN recieves LCS. And having to deal with a single hull will make maintance much easier.

On the other hand, if the USN stays serious with testing the two concepts against each other, only one LM hull available could extend the time needed to make a full assesment.
If GD keeps the cost limits, then maybe they will be in an advantage already and perhaps the navy doesn't even consider to make a full test of both designs and goes with GD from now on. That would indeed speed up the process. But the LM design wouldn't get fully evaluated.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Probally all for the better. This may evn quicken the pace that the USN recieves LCS. And having to deal with a single hull will make maintance much easier.

Yep...if they move forward with a single design, sooner or later it will mean quicker integration of, and better maintenacne of the LCS overall into the US Navy.

I believe the Lockheed design is a good design (so is the GD). They are coming from different directions to get the same type of capability. The Lockheed design is faster and has a more shallow draft. GD has an equal number of positive traits on its side.

I guess, over the next few years, we shall see how it goes. I know this, the USN needs that capability in the littorals, so the sooner the better IMHO.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

Yep...if they move forward with a single design, sooner or later it will mean quicker integration of, and better maintenacne of the LCS overall into the US Navy.

I believe the Lockheed design is a good design (so is the GD). They are coming from different directions to get the same type of capability. The Lockheed design is faster and has a more shallow draft. GD has an equal number of positive traits on its side.

I guess, over the next few years, we shall see how it goes. I know this, the USN needs that capability in the littorals, so the sooner the better IMHO.

Does anyone here think the LCS will essentially replace the Perry class frigates in the USN? And some of the higher up functions of the Perrys will be covered by destroyers?

Originally Posted by joshuatree

Does anyone here think the LCS will essentially replace the Perry class frigates in the USN? And some of the higher up functions of the Perrys will be covered by destroyers?

No I do not. Not now. The Perry class FFG's have a mission for now..ASW, AAW drug inderdiction & VBSS. In the future we shall have to wait and see. I would not be surprised to see all these missions turned over to the LCS.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

No I do not. Not now. The Perry class FFG's have a mission for now..ASW, AAW drug inderdiction & VBSS. In the future we shall have to wait and see. I would not be surprised to see all these missions turned over to the LCS.

Oh no doubt about now, obviously meant going on in the future. I am not aware of any next-gen frigate in the works for the USN and the Perrys aren't young either so it was a natural conclusion for me that eventually the LCS, with the number planned on acquiring, would take over most of the Perry's functions.

I have a "dumb" question... Lockheed Martin was contracted to produce LCS-1 and LCS-3, while General Dynamics was contracted to build LCS-2 and LCS-4.

Is there a difference in design betwenn LCS-1 and LCS-3, or are they identical?

The USN issued a "stop work" order on LCS-3 in Jan 2007. Was any construction work done on the LCS-3 before the stop work was issued?

Raytheon was initially contracted to submit a LCS design. Does anyone have any drawings or info on Raytheon's conceptual design, and its difference to Lockheed or GD's version?

Originally Posted by adeptitus

Raytheon was initially contracted to submit a LCS design. Does anyone have any drawings or info on Raytheon's conceptual design, and its difference to Lockheed or GD's version?

Well, on that part I refer you to http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...p/lcs-pics.htm it's interesting and gives a little overveiw.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

No I do not. Not now. The Perry class FFG's have a mission for now..ASW, AAW drug inderdiction & VBSS. In the future we shall have to wait and see. I would not be surprised to see all these missions turned over to the LCS.

They've removed ther single arm AAW launcher from almost all of the Perry's my friend. Their chief purpose now is interdiction and ASW. I believe the LCS will ultimately replace the Perrys, and that they will not just be used in the littorals, but also in Phibron and even CSG escort roles.

In the mean time, the Perrys will continue the interdiction and ASW role, particularly for Phibrons.

Originally Posted by adeptitus

I have a "dumb" question... Lockheed Martin was contracted to produce LCS-1 and LCS-3, while General Dynamics was contracted to build LCS-2 and LCS-4.

Is there a difference in design betwenn LCS-1 and LCS-3, or are they identical?

They are very different. LCS 2 and 4 by GD are trimaran designs. Lockheeds design is a shallow draft, high speed, semi-planing monohull design...which has a more traditional looking hull. The first post on this thread shows the different designs.