SinoDefence Forum

icekid

http://dailylark.blogspot.com/2008/0...-japanese.html

Oh my God.. I was surprised. It looks so beautiful.

Looks aside. It has 3d thrust vectoring. (watch the video)

I think US has helped the Japanese.


This suggests my argument too.

I think it's better than F-22 what do you guys think?

AsiaArmy

I don't think the US will give all their tech to another country...

And, it looks so similar to an f-22 xD

sumdud

The video is down already....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVZjfmjtIlc
And if that also gets cleaned, then search up "shin-shin"

But indeed a very beautiful fighter. Even if it is probably not as good or stealthy as F-22, which is rather portly. The 3 paddle TVC design is likely to give better results than the F-22's 2D, but still kind of limited. What the OVT has is still better.

I can't help but notice that it (and F-22) has almost no LERX. (As if LERX is not stealthy? I am sure the blended stuff on Fulcrums don't hurt its RCS.) And there is a .....fracture(?) between the wing and the fuselage.

F-2 was the first fighter to be equipped with AESA. It will be interesting to see how much they have progressed in the radar since that unreliable hunk of metal sitting in their overpriced Falcons.
And for those who can't read Chinese/Hanja/Kanji, they mentioned the government's decision in the chart which comes after testing and improvements.
Can't help but say, reminds me of another advanced Island jet.

__________________

Give us a break. Don't try ranting at SDF.

icekid

guys what if ShinShin becomes operational... Will it out perform F-22???

unknauthr

I thought that everyone had pretty much heard about the Shinshin by now. There was a fairly thorough write-up on the program in Aviation Week not that long ago (17 Dec 2007). Just to clarify for everyone:

• The ATD-X is a demonstrator, not an operational fighter. Aside from lacking the necessary systems integration for carrying a full compliment of sensors and weapons, its also too small to fulfill Japan's air defense mission.
  
• To help save costs, the ATD-X was intentionally scaled smaller than an operational air superiority fighter would need to be to perform its job successfully in the Far East. The airplane is about the size of Sweden's JAS-39 Gripen, with a projected wing span of 9 m, and a length of 14 m. Maximum take-off weight is quoted at around 9 metric tonnes.
  
• The basic shape of the ATD-X was tested at a French radar range in 2005, to confirm its radar cross section. To save budget, however, the demonstrator is expected to feature thrust-vectoring paddles. It's radar signature in the rear quarter will therefore not be representative of an operational aircraft.
  
• Among the technologies scheduled to be demonstrated on the ATD-X is an all-around, conformal radar system, providing 360-degree coverage. This is expected to be the first system of its kind to be demonstrated in a fighter-sized airframe.
  
• The ATD-X demonstrator is expected to be powered by two IHI XF5-a engines, with 50kN of thrust each in afterburner. This will be IHI's first attempt at developing an all-indigenous fighter engine.
  
• First flight is expected in 2011, with a total program cost of around 46.6 billion yen (around 414 million USD).

Taken in sum, the Shinshin appears to be aimed at demonstrating some basic technologies, and perhaps at giving Japan more leverage in future negotiations with the United States for license production of either the F-22 or F-35. The airplane is not aimed at "out-performing" the F-22, and is too small to perform the mission currently rendered by Japan's F-15J's. It could, however, provide Japan with either the know-how to develop a new fighter at a later date, or leverage to get a better deal than they have been offered so far for the F-35.

The UK took a similar approach during the 1990s, investing in a program known as Replica to demonstrate British mastery of stealth airframe concepts. The UK is currently the only partner in the F-35 program with full access to stealth manufacturing and aircraft repair techniques. It appears that Japan may aiming for a similar co-production arrangement.

sumdud

Nope, news to me. You have to remember, not everyone here is out of college, work projects, or vacation elsewhere, for the good or the bad. And of course, not everyone reads Aviation Week.

So they are probably going to fit the plane with OVT style exhaust shall the project be expanded?

The news in the video was probably an act of bluffing, but mentioning the process it takes to become an operational fighter is big hinting. I wouldn't be surprised. The F-35 doesn't carry much to start with.

But really, what's with the wing?

__________________

Give us a break. Don't try ranting at SDF.

unknauthr

The "fracture" that you are referring to between the wing and the fuselage represents the edge of the leading edge slats (control surfaces). For a better look at what this joint would likely look like on an operational aircraft (rather than on the model sent for test in France), you can look at some images of the F-22.

Tac Dog

I am quite sure that the U.S. politics will be involved in the future production of this state of the art stealth fighter jet just like the the Lavi!!

icekid

We just have to wait and see. Since US refused to sell F-22 Japan may be reluctant to give up ShinShin program.

unknauthr

Less than six months after the program was announced, and Japan's stealth demonstrator has seen its 2008 budget slashed by over 80%:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...onstrator.html

Out of the 49.9-billion Yen requested for 2008, only 7-billion Yen (66-million USD) have been approved. As a result of these cuts, although design work on the technology demonstrator is expected to continue, no hardware for the flying demonstrator will be purchased throughout the 2008 year. First flight can be expected to be set back accordingly.

unknauthr

Japan's Shin Shin technology demonstrator actually parallels some concept development work that has been ongoing in South Korea. Like Japan, the Korean government has been talking about a "go it alone" strategy for their next generation fighter - partly because some politicians believe in it (and don't know any better), and partly to give themselves some leverage when negotiating with the United States.

However, the Korean Development Institute, a government-funded economic think tank, recently published a report that concluded in clear terms that South Korea cannot afford to develop the KF-X fighter into a viable warplane:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-setback.html

The $10 billion price tag for the KF-X (envisioned as a full-scale fighter rather than a demonstrator), is simply beyond what the Korean government could envision itself funding. To the surprise of no one, the program will be stillborn before it ever leaves the concept phase.

On the one hand, Japan does have a much larger economy than South Korea ($5.1 trillion GDP in 2007, compared to $0.8 trillion for South Korea). Unlike South Korea, Japan could probably afford a program of this scale if they were truly committed to it. Proponents of following the ATD-X with a full scale fighter development effort, however, would face some of the same hurdles as their South Korean counterparts:

• A development price tag in the tens of billions of USD;
• Little or no prospect for recovering that investment through export sales;
• A US-built fighter (the F-35) that was being produced in greater quantities with a lower fly-away cost.

Japan appears to be following a more prudent policy with the ATD-X, developing a technology demonstrator that will keep their options open for later, while also giving them credibility when they want to negotiate with the US for greater participation in whatever US-developed fighter they might want to buy.

It will be a number of years before any of us can tell whether Japan's strategy will bear fruit. Meanwhile, it definitely will bear watching.

man overbored

Japan did something similar back in the 1980's with Aegis. They asked us for Aegis and we said not no but heck no! So Japan began a program to develop their own system comparable to Aegis. Well, it's one thing to buy an advanced system and another thing entirely to be able to design, test, manufacture and bring to operational status an advanced system. So the USN rethought their original decision. Maybe we didn't want the Japanese to have that hard won knowledge gained from trying things in the OT&E environment, making mistakes, breaking things and learning how things work. Better to sell a fully assembled system, even if it is your best stuff. Think of it this way. Anyone can buy a BMW Seven Series. There is quite another level of skill to correctly repair this computer intensive beast of a car. But to design test and build one is a skill very few have. In the case of Aegis the USN didn't want Japan to develop those special skill so we eventually sold it to them. Japan may be doing something similar with this airplane.