Indian Kolkata Class DDG

Looks good Jeff

Recently An Indian Naval task force visited Shanghai.
the webmaster on HSH site who went on the media tour commented on the poor internal wiring arrangements and welds.

Originally Posted by i.e.

Looks good Jeff

Recently An Indian Naval task force visited Shanghai.
the webmaster on HSH site who went on the media tour commented on the poor internal wiring arrangements and welds.

I believe you will find that these newer ship are better built. They are learning as the go. From the Delhi's back, not so good. From the Talwar's forward...better.

The Vikramaditya will be Russian built and refit...so will be very rugged and heavy duty, but rough around the edges. We shall see how well they do with :

1) Their new Vikrant carrier, and
2) Their new nuclea SSBN sub.

...and we must throw this one in there as well, the Kolkata itself, 1st in class, was acttually launched in 2006 and they have waited this many years for it to get the right propulsion from the Ukraine, and their own indegenous sensor and weapons fit. The third was launched in 2010...and they are well under way on the fourth now, which will be the first Project 15B variety.

By 2015-2016 they should have five of them and then all seven by late 2017 or so.

Jeff, I visited your website about Indian Kolkata Class DDG, on the right side you put some photos of the DDG during construction in somewhere Indian shipyard ... where is it ? I am so shocked to see how dirty and unorganised the shipyard is.

AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

I believe you will find that these newer ship are better built. They are learning as the go. From the Delhi's back, not so good. From the Talwar's forward...better.

The Vikramaditya will be Russian built and refit...so will be very rugged and heavy duty, but rough around the edges. We shall see how well they do with :

1) Their new Vikrant carrier, and
2) Their new nuclea SSBN sub.

...and we must throw this one in there as well, the Kolkata itself, 1st in class, was acttually launched in 2006 and they have waited this many years for it to get the right propulsion from the Ukraine, and their own indegenous sensor and weapons fit. The third was launched in 2010...and they are well under way on the fourth now, which will be the first Project 15B variety.

By 2015-2016 they should have five of them and then all seven by late 2017 or so.

Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

---

The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

---

The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

I would be surprised if the Shivalik continued in the earlier shoddy manufacturng.

As to the long construction time, they actually launched each vessel ffairly quickly in 2008, 2009, and 2010. They have been waiting on their own indegenous battle management and sensors, as well as particularly the final pieces of the Ukraining part of their propuslion. I believe this accounted for the dely and now that they ahve them, the outfitting is proceeding (as the pictures at my site shows) faiorly quickly. The will commission one thios year, one next year, and another in 2014. Then the four Project 15B will start coming out and they intend to have all seven commissioned bylate 2016 or 2018...and the Proj 15B will have the ER-Barak with I believe 110kn range which will help.

IMHO, seven such vessels, coupled with their new frigates will make very adequate escorts for their carriers.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Of course not meaning to start a heated comparison, but I think the taskgroup which went to shanghai were actually newer vessels. I know for a fact one of them was a shivalik class frigate (the newest major surface combatant class of the IN to enter service). But of course there was also a rajput class DDG and corvette and italian built deepak class tanker.

So we don't really know which class of vessel this person is talking about, that is if their opinion is one we should listen to at all.

I feel like the ships the IN are pumping out are increasingly capable but production is much too slow. Kolkata has been under construction for something like ten years now.

---

The line drawing of the kolkata is great as well.
Although kolkata will be at the low end of the AAW DDGs of the world, mostly because of the relatively low range of its main SAM (barak 8, 70 km) and relatively less powerful APAR (>250 km for high flying aircraft compared to the 400+ km of type 052C and daring's APAR). But it is certainly very powerful in other areas, such as the 16 brahmos missiles (regardless of the supersonic-subsonic debate), and the barak 1 point defence SAMs with the two AK630s make for a potent ciws, not to mention the facility for two helicopters.

Half or more then that of Indian Navy frigates are of New generation and INS Shivalik is not the newest of Frigates, while the same cannot be said with Indian Navy Destroyers, which are comparatively of older generation, the entry of Kolkata class will register new generation Destroyers for Indian Navy but unfortunately Barak-8 Air defence and radar components are still passing through testing phase causing the main reason for delay.

I thought Type 052C Destroyers have Air Defence capabilities upto 200km.

regarding Kolkata Class, India has been working on them for over 10 years and we are yet to see 1st to be commissioned and theres a good reason for it

for Kolkata India imported from

Israel
EL/M-2221 STGR Fire control radar
Barak-1
E/M-2248 MF-STAR Multifuntion radar
Barak-8

from Netherlands
LW-08 Air Search Radar

from Russia
3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Anti-ship MI/SSM
MR-90/Front Dome Fire control radar
9M317/SA-17 Grizzly SAM
AK-100 100mm Naval gun
AK-630 30mm Naval gun
Kite Screech Fire control radar
MR-123/Bass Tilt Fire control radar
RBU-6000 ASW MRL
SET-65E ASW torpedo
Garpun/Plank Shave Air search radar

from Ukarine
DT-59 Gas turbine

in addition many sub-contractors went to outside countrys, this results in many different issues and problems, added to this, Indian military continues to change its requirments while the Indian goverment constantly trys to fit the ship to their requirments, so by the times the ship is built it has deviated far from its intial purpose, like Arjun MBT story

4 more have been ordered but i cant see them entering service anytime soon, infact equipment for Kolkata was ordered as far back as 2000 thats

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

regarding Kolkata Class, India has been working on them for over 10 years and we are yet to see 1st to be commissioned and theres a good reason for it

for Kolkata India imported from

Israel
EL/M-2221 STGR Fire control radar
Barak-1
E/M-2248 MF-STAR Multifuntion radar
Barak-8

from Netherlands
LW-08 Air Search Radar

from Russia
3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Anti-ship MI/SSM
MR-90/Front Dome Fire control radar
9M317/SA-17 Grizzly SAM
AK-100 100mm Naval gun
AK-630 30mm Naval gun
Kite Screech Fire control radar
MR-123/Bass Tilt Fire control radar
RBU-6000 ASW MRL
SET-65E ASW torpedo
Garpun/Plank Shave Air search radar

from Ukarine
DT-59 Gas turbine

in addition many sub-contractors went to outside countrys, this results in many different issues and problems, added to this, Indian military continues to change its requirments while the Indian goverment constantly trys to fit the ship to their requirments, so by the times the ship is built it has deviated far from its intial purpose, like Arjun MBT story

4 more have been ordered but i cant see them entering service anytime soon, infact equipment for Kolkata was ordered as far back as 2000 thats

Do they keep changing the requirement because of the advancement (very quick) of Chinese systems (so Pakistan as well) ?

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

regarding Kolkata Class, India imported from :
Israel


from Netherlands

from Russia


from Ukarine


4 more have been ordered but i cant see them entering service anytime soon, infact equipment for Kolkata was ordered as far back as 2000 thats

Well, I believe for the Project 15A everything is now in place and we will see the first handed over to the navy this year. the second in 2013, and the third in early 2014.

I expect that with the Project 15B, now that the vast majority of components are in place, they will go faster such that I believe in 2015 two may be delivered, and then by early 2017 the other two will be delivered such that by 2017 they have all seven vessels.

And that will be good timing too. By then the INS will have two decent carriers in the Vikramaditya and the Vikrant, which will need one of these for escort duties each along with a couple of their new frigates at least.


And a third carrier will be nearing completion by 2017 for the INS too.

if INS Viraat serves until 2020 as expected that means it will become the longest serving aircraft carrier in history?

it was commissioned in 1959 and by 2019 thats would make it 60 years, USS Enterprise was commissioned in 1961 and is due for decommissioning in 2013, so thats 52 years

i see it as,

INS Viraat serves for this decade after its most recent re-fit
INS Vikramaditya joins in 2013-2014
INS Vikrant joins post-2015

but INS Vishal the bigger version of the Vikrant Class hasnt been laid yet, my guess is, it wouldnt appear until post-2020, very much doubting that India will field all 4 carriers at the same time, they will have 3 at the most, 2 at any one time

if all Harriers stay operational

then INS Viraat can take 30 Harrier aircraft
INS Vikramaditya can carry max. 24 Mig29K aircraft
and INS Vikrant will carry 30 Mig29K

so thats around 80-85 fighter aircraft for operations from carriers

sorry, this post should be in Carrier thread but i posted in this destroyer thread since we are on the topic

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

if INS Viraat serves until 2020 as expected that means it will become the longest serving aircraft carrier in history?

it was commissioned in 1959 and by 2019 thats would make it 60 years, USS Enterprise was commissioned in 1961 and is due for decommissioning in 2013, so thats 52 years

i see it as,

INS Viraat serves for this decade after its most recent re-fit
INS Vikramaditya joins in 2013-2014
INS Vikrant joins post-2015

but INS Vishal the bigger version of the Vikrant Class hasnt been laid yet, my guess is, it wouldnt appear until post-2020, very much doubting that India will field all 4 carriers at the same time, they will have 3 at the most, 2 at any one time

if all Harriers stay operational

then INS Viraat can take 30 Harrier aircraft
INS Vikramaditya can carry max. 24 Mig29K aircraft
and INS Vikrant will carry 30 Mig29K

so thats around 80-85 fighter aircraft for operations from carriers

sorry, this post should be in Carrier thread but i posted in this destroyer thread since we are on the topic

No prob with me. Cnsder posting it in my new thread specifically about Indian Carriers:

All about the new Indian Aircraft Carriers

As it is, the Viraat will be the longest...but I bet the USS Enterprise is by far and away the most used. Considering the tempo of deployments over those years and the tempo of the flight operations...no other nation's carrier could compare.

Originally Posted by antiterror13

Jeff, I visited your website about Indian Kolkata Class DDG, on the right side you put some photos of the DDG during construction in somewhere Indian shipyard ... where is it ? I am so shocked to see how dirty and unorganised the shipyard is.

AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

Mazagon Dock Limited. Apparently, it is one of India's most capable and oldest shipyard, it also built the majority of India's modern navy. I'll take Jiangnan over it anyday though, no offence of course.

Originally Posted by antiterror13

Jeff, I visited your website about Indian Kolkata Class DDG, on the right side you put some photos of the DDG during construction in somewhere Indian shipyard ... where is it ? I am so shocked to see how dirty and unorganised the shipyard is.

AEGIS VESSLES OF THE WORLD - KOLKATA CLASS PAGE

That's Mazagon Dock Limited, or just MDL, in Mumbai. Unkempt though it may be, they have been in operation since the the early 1800s there, thought the current "business" was founded in 1934 or so.

They build a lot of commercial vessels (tugs, supply vessels, tankers, passenger vessels, etc. including Offshore Oil Platforms), but they are also the largest naval vessel provider (in terms of nunbers) in India and have constructed a lot o India's indegenous naval vessels and license builds, including surface and submarine projects. Here's the page about that Mazagon Naval Ships.

So, it is old and unkempt, but there is also a whole lot of experience there.

I think you are just being generous and polite to Indians .. But I know exactly what in your mind

Nothing wrong of being polite