SinoDefence Forum

darth sidious

EMPIRE

for ground support you need a heavily armoured aircraft like the IL_2 or Su-25
the harrier is very weak structaly machine gun rounds can destoryer it

its air to ground weapons are also very primitive campared with others

TerraN_EmpirE

SIDIOUS

First the IL_2 and SU_25 are Russian Aircraft the American Equivalent is the the A10 Thunderbolt 2 ( better known as the WARTHOG ).

Second in USMC service the Harrier is a Limited anti-Amour, anti-infantry attack aircraft (the Us also uses F/A18's, F16's, AH64 Apaches and AH1 Cobras in this role as close air support and light bombers.USMC does not fly The AH64, F16 or A10.) although Primitive it is quite effective when used properly in perfect conditions. Although there are marine units on US carriers and they are part of the Office of the navy, space is limited to the ships own air-wing. when the Marines want to fly from a ship it's usually a Amphibious assault ship and lacks the Cat to launch a F/A 18 so they use VTOL. and because the USMC is by function a amphibious Rapid reaction infantry service ( still part of the navy ) Marine aviators Primary mission is to support the infantry.

bd popeye

Excellent post TerraN_EmpirE. As you posted the Harrier was never intended for heavy attack.

Darth the USMC has been operating Harriers since 1972. It is an old airplane whose time is past.

As for USMC avation. Did you know that the USMC squadrons regulary deploy with USN Carrier Air wings? In fact most CVW's have at least one USMC F/A-18 squadron deployed with them. Check out this yahoo search for more info.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=ut...rrier+Air+wing

True. The USMC wants 609 F-35 JSF. They will probaly get less. I think the first USMC and USN squadrons will be comissioned in 2008.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...craft/f-35.htm

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renmin

the f-35 is designed to replace the harrier in a sense, the first harrier was born in october 1960 while it went through various improvements through out the years. you can see the idea of the harrier is getting pretty old and the US needs an aircraft that can perform all the capabilities of the harrier plus more advanced capabilities. so far, the JSF project is under debt and very expensive so you wont see the USM getting much of these fighters on the first batch.

darth sidious

EMPIRE

you said that the harrier is good for ground attack but there are aircrafts far better then that I mentioned the IL-2 beacuse is one of the best

the only reason the americans use it its beasuse thats the only aircraft that dont need a large run way

1 It's Gatling cannon
2 it's rockets
3 its missiles
4 it's VTOL thrusters

these weapons are pathetic compare with what SU-25or A-10 have

the harrier is a weak aircraft that can be destoryered by 12.7mm bullets not a good choice

bd popeye

The USMC will get theirs. Not as many as they want as fast as they want. But they will come in time.

Actually it's not the F-35 program that's in financial trouble. It that the US DoD(Department of Defense) must cut back it's expenditures. trimming back the F-35 program is one way to do it. The USAF may get zero F-35's. While the USN and USMC probaly will be cut back some.

Did you ever see the PBS speical on the F-35 competition? Excellent program.

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renmin

true the harrier is more of a bomber, it can not accomplish what a A-10 can do. Here is why. the harrier has a design like most jets today, the F-15,Su-27, F-18, F-16etc. the air intake is connected to the fuelsalage where the fuel is stored so if you were to use a f-15 for close airsupport, it would have to be close to the ground, now a soilder shoots a bullet to the fuelsalge,BOOM! the jet explodes because of flamability. This was why the A-10 was developed, why else whould the A-10's air intake be seperated from the fuelsalage? fact is, the JSF can not provide close air support either.

darth sidious

no the harrier is designed for vstol

the intakes are optimsed for handling at low speed for from what a flanker can do

TerraN_EmpirE

True But those are Aircraft built to take on Tanks, The A10 ( Frogfoot would never be deployed by the USMC ) also lack the ability to be deployed by VTOL a necessity for the USMC. much of that Weak ordinance is more then capable of wiping out most targets, Including tanks, APCs, Light Trucks and the like. Also it would still take a number of 12.7mm rounds or a few well placed shots to take down a harrier. ( yet i could say the same about the Hind ) Now against a tank would i prefer a Harrier? no A 10 thunderbolt is a solid tough flying Tank built from start to finish to kill Tanks. The Harrier is a compromise like every thing It was when new meant to give most options it can in one package. the system was flawed by the constraints of technology and abllitys of the time. By choice I prefer the F35 B to the harrier. When i posted that list it was half joke ( the VTOL thrusters part but thats also half true) and half to clarify the reasons Harrier supporters like it.

sumdud

The Harriers in American service uses the Gatking gun? I don't know, but I know the British use the Adder.

And thrusters? What are you trying to kill? The only thing it can kill are bare people, and huts. And I doubt it kills fast enough to not allow the enemy shove in a couple of rounds first.

As for the choking, it's not a surprise. If you look the engine design, it ends not with the exhaust, but with a flat end, so what do you expect to handle to the gas while it hits the place? Especially at low power......

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Sea Dog

OK. Here's what Harrier brings to the table. Tactical mobility, rapid response and forward presence. It was not designed to be a heavy-hitter like an A-10 at all. In any amphibious landing scenario away from FEBA, combined with SOF's using laser designators, the AV-8B brings the GBU-12 LGB and GBU-16. The groundpounders wouldn't even see it coming. It can carry a myriad of LAU's. And has the ability to deliver the MK-series free-fall bombs and cluster munitions which make it more vulnerable in delivery in some cases. The strength in the system is the forward mobility where A-10 and other dedicated CAS aircraft cannot go. And being on scene rapidly as the situation on the ground changes in or away from the FEBA. The limitations are it's vulnerability to small anti-air weapons, and relatively small payload.

Yimmy

The Harrier was designed as a close support / tactical strike aircraft to operate from dispersed forward deployed landing zones. In this role, it excells, and has been suitably upgraded. It is vulnerable to manpads and AAA, but then everything has to make compromises.

In its modern GR.7/9 form, fitted with Brimstone, it is as capable a tank buster as anything else out there.

adeptitus

In addition to close support, it was also designed for recon and air combat (fighter) role. In the Falklands war, 20 Sea Harriers deployed on the HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible shut down 23 Argentine aircraft.

The USMC AV-8B II+ variant is said to have been upgraded with AN/APG-65 radar and can use AIM-120 AMRRAM's.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV-8_Harrier_II
Armament
* Detachable fuselage strakes can be replaced with pods for one GAU-12U 'Equalizer' 25 mm cannon (left pod) and 300 rounds of ammunition (right pod) 7 pylons for a maximum of 13,200 lb (STOL) of stores, including: Iron bombs, cluster bombs, napalm canisters, laser-guided bombs, AGM-65 Maverick missiles, and up to four AIM-9 Sidewinder or similar-sized infrared-guided missiles. AV-8B+ variants can carry up to four AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-12_Equalizer
The General Electric GAU-12/U Equalizer is a 25 mm, five-barrel Gatling gun used by the United States and several other NATO nations.

The Equalizer normally uses PGU-20/U armor-piercing incendiary (API) or PGU-22 or PGU-25 high-explosive incendiary (HEI) ammunition. With a harder-hitting projectile and comparable muzzle velocity, it is more lethal than the older M61 Vulcan, and more effective than the older 30mm ADEN cannon it replaces.

The current principal application for the Equalizer is the AV-8 Harrier IIs of the USMC, Italian Air Force and Spanish Air Force. The Harrier II carries the Equalizer system in a pair of pods mounted on the fuselage sides, with the cannon in the port pod and 300 rounds of ammunition in the starboard pod, fed through a bridge at the aft ends of the pods that also contains the drive system for the gun. The complete installation, which includes a double-ended feed system that returns empty cartridges to the magazine, weighs 900 lb (408.2 kg) empty and 1,230 lb (557.9 kg) loaded. RAF and Fleet Air Arm Harriers have not adopted the Equalizer for their Harriers. The British had originally planned a pair of ADEN 25 guns (using the same ammunition as the GAU-12/U, but based on the 30mm ADEN cannon). That gun was cancelled in 1999 after protracted development problems, and British Harriers and Sea Harriers have been forced to rely on the older 30mm gun.

The GAU-12 will be the cannon armament of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The USAF F-35A CTOL will have an internal GAU-12 with 180 rounds of ammunition, while the F-35B STOVL version for the USMC and Royal Navy and the F-35C for the USN will carry the same weapon in a streamlined centerline pod with 220 rounds of ammunition.

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By adder, you don't mean the AA-12/R-77??

Yimmy

I was refering to what the Harrier was first designed for, ie in its Matador form, rather than what it later became. Of course it also evolved into the FRS1 and Harrier II etc.

sumdud

No, I meant the British Adder 30 mm twin cannon.

So that's how the Harrier have 8 HP.......
I don't really think the Harrier is very effective outside LPDs and VTOL carrier. It's too small and gas eating.
If I was a designer, I'd find a replacement....

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