HAL Tejas Jet Fighter

Im getting the impression that India is buying this aircraft more for political reasons, rather than strictly military ones. It would simply look unbearably bad if Indian military did not back its own indigenous fighter. I am not saying LCA is completely useless; I believe it just does not add up when compared side by side with other fighters in the same class, which India has access to.

Going for US engines sounds like a very bad move in the first place. Given US continue political change and the fact, US engines are far more expensive add up per unit cost of LCA and if HAL intend to export this aircraft. Plenty of restriction given that most western countries will opt for expensive F-16 or Gripen. Leaving third world county the only possible buyer but most thrird world country do not have friendly term with US.

Looking at the price they weren't very far to F-16 variants...

And F-16 was a better fighter..

On top of the cost and engine problems the LCA is another fighter, India already owning Mig 27's, Mig 21, Mig 29's, SU 30MKI's, Mirage 2000's and Jaguar's and soon in the future you can add their MRCA fighter, PAKFA (FGFA in India) and the Indian fifth generation fighter, that's a lot of planes for one country.

India should just make the LCA an advanced trainer, get it in service immediately to reduce their pilots deaths, concentrate on next gen planes, and buy more Mig 29's and Mirages and scrap the whole MRCA competition which wont do anything to address the numbers situation.

Some news on the LCA. The naval variant is pressed ahead, althoung India seeks for an international partner for technical consulting.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...13&c=ASI&s=TOP

India To Seek Partners For Naval LCA Development

By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 5 Oct 2009 17:02

NEW DELHI - India has decided to look for global partners in developing the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as Lockheed Martin failed to get needed security clearances.

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has ordered six naval versions of the single-engine LCA, giving a boost to the homegrown program. The move is seen as a further commitment by the Navy to the LCA program, said a senior Navy official.

[...]

The Navy only last month ordered six naval-version LCAs and has committed about $30 million for each aircraft. ...

I give India credit for sticking it through. You can only get better by trying.

I don't think HAL Tejas is doing too bad.

10 planes are flying in the air. (No crash at all, thus far).

Tejas proved successful on all tests (except for engine thrust required at sea-level - which is why a larger engine is sought). AoA upto 22-24 degrees is done successfully. AoA of 28 degress is under testing.

In case of a blockade from US for GE engines, Kaveri could still potentially be used on Tejas. (Similar to China, which has problems with WS10A in it's process of replacing Russian AL31FN engines for J-10 -- WS10A offers a safeguard to China, vis-a-vis Russia).

True, Tejas has to compete against other western fighters. China's J-10 has no competition from western fighters, which are not offered. Hence, J-10 is an obvious choice for PLAAF, good or bad.

But Tejas is not going too badly against those western fighters .... in terms of cost atleast. Tejas costs USD 21M against Super Hornet F-18 which costs USD 58M.

So, roughly 3 Tejas = 1 Super Hornet F-18.

Tejas is indeed meant to solve the numbers problem for IAF. Mig-21 will be replaced in bulk over the next 5-8 years.

J-10 is a good output from China .. in that it's the only 4th gen plane China has put up in the air (even though, it uses a Russian engine as it's most reliable powerplant).

Both India and China do need western technology inputs.. rather than try to re-invent the wheel. Eventually, both will make planes which are comparable to western planes.

But, it's also possible by the time India / China produce western standard planes .. those planes would cost similar to western planes.

So, as we improve the capability .... cost-wise the new planes won't come cheap.



(J-10 costs USD 28 million; HAL Tejas costs USD 21 Million) as per wikipedia.

Originally Posted by bingo

I don't think HAL Tejas is doing too bad.

10 planes are flying in the air. (No crash at all, thus far).

Tejas proved successful on all tests (except for engine thrust required at sea-level - which is why a larger engine is sought). AoA upto 22-24 degrees is done successfully. AoA of 28 degress is under testing.

In case of a blockade from US for GE engines, Kaveri could still potentially be used on Tejas. (Similar to China, which has problems with WS10A in it's process of replacing Russian AL31FN engines for J-10 -- WS10A offers a safeguard to China, vis-a-vis Russia).

True, Tejas has to compete against other western fighters. China's J-10 has no competition from western fighters, which are not offered. Hence, J-10 is an obvious choice for PLAAF, good or bad.

But Tejas is not going too badly against those western fighters .... in terms of cost atleast. Tejas costs USD 21M against Super Hornet F-18 which costs USD 58M.

So, roughly 3 Tejas = 1 Super Hornet F-18.

Tejas is indeed meant to solve the numbers problem for IAF. Mig-21 will be replaced in bulk over the next 5-8 years.

J-10 is a good output from China .. in that it's the only 4th gen plane China has put up in the air (even though, it uses a Russian engine as it's most reliable powerplant).

Both India and China do need western technology inputs.. rather than try to re-invent the wheel. Eventually, both will make planes which are comparable to western planes.

But, it's also possible by the time India / China produce western standard planes .. those planes would cost similar to western planes.

So, as we improve the capability .... cost-wise the new planes won't come cheap.



(J-10 costs USD 28 million; HAL Tejas costs USD 21 Million) as per wikipedia.

I don't think LCA will cost USD21 million. I think the wiki has not updated on the price for long..

And the Kaveri engine has not even pass the design phase. It will probably take most optimistic 5-6 years to clear for mass production. If US start the blockade, it will have nothing to use at the moment.

I think the HAL Tejas is great for India to gain experience in 4th generation plane design so they could move on to bigger and better things. The aircraft itself, however, doesn't have a very good price vs. performance ratio. The tag of 21 million dollars is a bit too high for a plane that is supposed to replace India's vast fleet of obsolete Mig-21s. The main concern with the U.S. engine shouldn't be sanctions (I don't see a U.S. split with India anytime soon or India finding costumers for the LCA) but the high price and potential competition with domestic engines. My best advice would be to use the U.S. engine for now, just as China used Russian engines on the J-10s, and then move on to the Kaveri once the plane is proven to be capable.

I believe Tejas is comparable to JF-17 (aka FC-1) in size and performance, comparing the prices JF-17 is much cheaper at around US15 million (price may change if customers picked different avionics).

JF-17 also has the head start in show case in Fanborough, and may already have started some sale negotiations. Egypt and Turkey, and a few other third world countries have shown interest. The attractive points are cheap price, good aviionic and performance (according to Pakistani pilots who previously flow the PAF F-16), and no political sanction from China.

Tejas is not yet proven in service, but upon maturity should prove a good replacement for Indian airforce MIG-21, MIG-23 and Jaguar, at least in logistic.

Export wise it may face some problems, possible sanction from US is but one of many. price is another, of course it has to face competition from JF-17 as well.

Originally Posted by lcloo

I believe Tejas is comparable to JF-17 (aka FC-1) in size and performance, comparing the prices JF-17 is much cheaper at around US15 million (price may change if customers picked different avionics).

JF-17 also has the head start in show case in Fanborough, and may already have started some sale negotiations. Egypt and Turkey, and a few other third world countries have shown interest. The attractive points are cheap price, good aviionic and performance (according to Pakistani pilots who previously flow the PAF F-16), and no political sanction from China.

Tejas is not yet proven in service, but upon maturity should prove a good replacement for Indian airforce MIG-21, MIG-23 and Jaguar, at least in logistic.

Export wise it may face some problems, possible sanction from US is but one of many. price is another, of course it has to face competition from JF-17 as well.

Let's not drag JF-17 into picture. We shall just continue talking about LCA only.

I too believe its a good start for India aviation but to replace bulk of India airforce and even gaining export sounds not very positive. I believe LCA is a essential experience for them to design a better plane in future. Without LCA, India aviation will never mature.

Originally Posted by bingo

I don't think HAL Tejas is doing too bad.

10 planes are flying in the air. (No crash at all, thus far).

Tejas proved successful on all tests (except for engine thrust required at sea-level - which is why a larger engine is sought). AoA upto 22-24 degrees is done successfully. AoA of 28 degress is under testing.

In case of a blockade from US for GE engines, Kaveri could still potentially be used on Tejas. (Similar to China, which has problems with WS10A in it's process of replacing Russian AL31FN engines for J-10 -- WS10A offers a safeguard to China, vis-a-vis Russia).

True, Tejas has to compete against other western fighters. China's J-10 has no competition from western fighters, which are not offered. Hence, J-10 is an obvious choice for PLAAF, good or bad.

But Tejas is not going too badly against those western fighters .... in terms of cost atleast. Tejas costs USD 21M against Super Hornet F-18 which costs USD 58M.

So, roughly 3 Tejas = 1 Super Hornet F-18.

Tejas is indeed meant to solve the numbers problem for IAF. Mig-21 will be replaced in bulk over the next 5-8 years.

J-10 is a good output from China .. in that it's the only 4th gen plane China has put up in the air (even though, it uses a Russian engine as it's most reliable powerplant).

Both India and China do need western technology inputs.. rather than try to re-invent the wheel. Eventually, both will make planes which are comparable to western planes.

But, it's also possible by the time India / China produce western standard planes .. those planes would cost similar to western planes.

So, as we improve the capability .... cost-wise the new planes won't come cheap.

(J-10 costs USD 28 million; HAL Tejas costs USD 21 Million) as per wikipedia.

The J-10 is already comparable to Western planes. The F-16C/D Block 50 comes to mind. I also think that the HAL Tejas is more comparable to the JF-17 in terms of size and capability rather than to either the J-10 or the F-16, which are both more advanced and more capable, Indian claims of the Tejas being a "4+" generation aircraft notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by ZTZ99

The J-10 is already comparable to Western planes. The F-16C/D Block 50 comes to mind. I also think that the HAL Tejas is more comparable to the JF-17 in terms of size and capability rather than to either the J-10 or the F-16, which are both more advanced and more capable, Indian claims (? - Su30MKI is "4+", not Tejas) of the Tejas being a "4+" generation aircraft notwithstanding.

The point of comparison with J-10 is only one: It was built around a foreign engine. But China is also working on making WS10A, so that the need for AL31FN is eliminated.

Same is true for HAL Tejas -> Built around GE404, but India is working on an indigenous engine, as an alternative.

Actually, JF-17 also uses a Russian engine.... and again, an indigenous engine is being build.

On just that point: J-10, HAL Tejas and JF-17 stand on the same footing.

India and China both found developing the aircraft engine to be a bigger challenge than developing the plane itself.

Possibly, it can be said that WS10A is further up the curve ..... It has actually been flown in the air. (However, a couple crashes happened, which are attributed to this engine).

Kaveri engine has not been flown in the air, with the Tejas. (Hence, no crashes either). It has passed one of the two "milestones", before it can be declared flight-worthy. (It failed on high-altitude tests in 2004, but passed the same last year). A total of 8 complete engines have been built and being used for simultaneous testing.

-----

Another comparison I did was on price:

4.5 Gen (as per wikipedia)
Super Hornet F-18 = USD 58 million

4 Gen (as per wikipedia)
J-10 = USD 28 million
Tejas = USD 21 million
JF-17 = USD 15 million


1. HAL Tejas is in between J-10 and JF-17 on costs.
2. All three are 4th Gen aircrafts.

Cost Vs Performance characteristics of the three are of the same order.
If you compute these characteristics to the decimal value precisions .... sure it will be different for the three aircraft. But the values will be in the same order of magnitude.

HAL Tejas is no better and no worse than the other two.

The comparison ends there.



HAL Tejas is not going be the front-line fighter for IAF. It is just to replace the current Mig-21.

JF-17 and J-10 are fine aircraft in their own right. But any reference to them in this thread only for illustration.

The recent "couple of crashes" had nothing to do with this engine, but with AL31FN.