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France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

This is a discussion on France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan within the World Armed Forces forums, part of the World Strategic Defence Area category; http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2800/janespn10gz.jpg (Janes source) French cut for navy on sub deal Josy Joseph Sunday, February 19, 2006 02:25 IST NEW DELHI: ...

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    Exclamation France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2800/janespn10gz.jpg
    (Janes source)


    French cut for navy on sub deal

    Josy Joseph
    Sunday, February 19, 2006 02:25 IST



    NEW DELHI: If all goes well for French arms manufacturer DCN, it would be building Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy and a new-generation submarine for Pakistan, side by side in the same shipyard.

    This scenario has caused alarm in the Indian security establishment, which is looking at ways to convey its concern to France as President Jacques Chirac arrives in New Delhi on Sunday evening for a three-day visit. Though the navy is reluctant to go on record, a senior officer said, “We will put forth our concerns.”

    DCN’s audacity in approaching the Pakistan Navy and offering a new generation of submarines within months of sealing the Rs13,000 crore Scorpene deal with India has not gone down well with New Delhi.

    Defence experts are keenly watching the upcoming visit of a Pakistani naval delegation, led by an admiral-rank officer, to the DCN shipyard at Cherbourg, where work on the Scorpenes has begun.

    The navy says there is not much it can do in the matter as both are “commercial deals” and cannot be prevented on any technical grounds. But it says it is “unethical” of DCN to have approached Pakistan so soon after closing the deal with India, and hopes Paris will prevent it from closing the deal.

    But such hopes may not amount to much. Uttam Datt, a Delhi high court advocate specialising in commercial litigation, said, “An exclusivity clause is very common in all commercial negotiations, more so in this kind of a contract, where the whole objective is to get superiority over your adversary. That advantage is lost if your adversary gets access to the same equipment.”

    Datt said that unless he saw the contract, he would not be able to comment on the success of the navy’s negotiators in inserting an exclusivity clause. “But on the face of it, the navy could have technically stopped DCN from supplying similar kind of machines to Pakistan at least for some time,” he said.

    DCN is no stranger to Pakistan, having supplied three Agosta 90B submarines to the country under a contract signed in 1994.

    The first of the Agosta class submarines was built in the same Cherbourg shipyard. The remaining two were being assembled in Karachi when 11 French engineers working on the project were killed in a terrorist attack in May 2002.

    http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1013719

    The French sure know how to make money. Anyway, new generation of subs? The subs will be diesel, but what new features will there be? My guess is new types of torpedoes, a better AIP system, LACM capability, and a better sonar system. What do you guys think?

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by tphuang
    Interesting, I wonder what's going to happen to the Agosta 90B deal then. Is Pakistan going to have to pay another full ToT for this new generation submarine on top of the existing payments for 90B?
    Quite possibly. The French have handed out ToT's to both Pakistan and to India so I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan takes this opportunity once again. Above that, the third Agosta 90B submarine will most likely be inducted in 2007 since its is being fitted with the AIP system.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    what's the name for this new generation submarine ?

    DCN says on it's website that it offers 'integrated solutions'

    Does that mean that this submarine will be integrated into

    the new surface vessel system Pakistan is getting from America ?

    Current Capabilities

    The Pakistani Navy currently operates a fleet of eight diesel-electric submarines.[1] The vessels are based in Karachi, but in the future they are to be based at Port Ormara.[1] The main submarine fleet is comprised of four aging Daphne-class units, two Agosta-70 boats, as well as two modern Agosta-90B submarines, all of French design. An additional Agosta-90B is under construction. The final Agosta 90B will feature DCN's air-independent propulsion system, MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome), with which the two earlier Agosta-90B vessels will be retrofitted in the future. Pakistan has also announced its intention to construct additional submarines, in order to maintain its conventional deterrent against India.[2,3] The Pakistani Navy also has four Italian-designed midget submarines. These vessels, as well as the newest Agosta-90B boats, are being constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works.[4]

    During the 1971 war between India and Pakistan, India effectively blockaded Karachi, Pakistan's only major harbor. Pakistani efforts to curtail India's naval supremacy were largely limited to its submarine force, which was able to sink an Indian frigate.[5] Drawing on these experiences and the perceived threat posed by a larger Indian Navy, Pakistan has been continuously investing in its submarine force, within the constraints posed by its economy.

    An effective sea-denial capability is of utmost importance to Pakistan, as 95 percent of its imports are transported by ship.[6] Consequently, Pakistan's Navy in general and submarine flotilla in particular are tasked with protecting Pakistani maritime interests and guaranteeing the security of its sea lanes, and thus its access, to the northern Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea.[6,7,8]

    In February 2001, the Pakistani Navy publicly considered the deployment of nuclear weapons aboard its submarines, arguing that it had to keep pace with developments in India.[9] However, in January 2003 Pakistan rescinded its statement, explaining that such an endeavor would be too costly.[10] Yet, shortly afterwards, a high-ranking naval officer stated that while Pakistan currently did not plan to arms its submarines with nuclear weapons, it would do so if forced.[11] Some have alleged that Pakistan is able to mount a nuclear device onto its French-provided SM39 Exocet missiles; however, this is currently unlikely due to the difficulty involved in building a nuclear warhead small enough for the missile (the Exocet normally carries a 165 kg warhead).[12,13]
    Khalid (Agosta 90B)
    Displacement, tons: 1,510 surfaced
    1,760 submerged (1,960 with MESMA)
    Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
    (67.6×6.8×5.4)
    Main machinery: Hybrid diesel-electric/MESMA AIP
    Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
    20 submerged
    Range, miles: 8,500 at 9kt snorting; 350 at 3.5kt submerged, quadrupled at 4kt with MESMA
    Complement: 36 (7 officers)
    Diving depth, ft (m): 1,050 (320)
    Endurance: 68 days
    Weapons: 4 SSMs and 16 torpedoes; four 21in (533mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

    Sources:
    Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
    A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, p. 537.
    David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
    Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk/FLEET/MAIN PAGE.htm

    Hashmat (Agosta 70)
    Displacement, tons: 1,490 surfaced
    1,740 submerged PNS KHALID (AGOSTA 90-B CLASS)
    Dimensions, ft (m): 221.7×22.3×17.7
    (67.6×6.8×5.4)
    Main machinery: Diesel-electric
    Speed, knots: 12 surfaced
    20 submerged
    Range, miles: 8,500 at 9 knots surfaced
    350 at 3.5 knots submerged
    Complement: 59 (8 officers)
    Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
    Endurance: Not available
    Weapons: 20 SSMs and torpedoes; four 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

    Sources:
    Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
    A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World, pp. 537-538.
    David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002), pp. 248-249.
    Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk.

    Hangor (Daphne)
    Displacement, tons: 869 surfaced
    1,043 submerged PNS HASMAT (AGOSTA CLASS)
    Dimensions, ft (m): 189.6×22.3×15.1
    (57.8×6.8×4.6)
    Main machinery: diesel-electric
    Speed, knots: 13 surfaced
    15.5 submerged
    Range, miles: 4,500 at 5 knots surfaced
    3,000 at 7 knots snorting
    Complement: 53 (7 officers)
    Diving depth, ft (m): 985 (300)
    Endurance: Not available
    Weapons: 12 SSMs and torpedoes; twelve 21.7in (550mm) tubes; mines in lieu of torpedoes

    Sources:
    Stephen Saunders, Jane's Fighting Ships 2002-2003 (Coulsdon: Jane's Information Group, 2003).
    A.D. Baker, Combat Fleets of the World p. 538.
    David Miller, The Illustrated Directory of Submarines of the World (St. Paul: MBI Publishing Company, 2002) p. 246-249.
    Pakistani Navy Website, http://paknavy.gov.pk.

    ACTIVE DUTY SUBMARINES
    Name (Number) Class Base Builder Laid down Launched Commissioned
    Hangor (S131) Hangor Karachi DCN (Naval Arsenal, Brest) January 1967 June 1969 January 1970
    Shushuk (S132) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) January 1967 July 1969 January 1970
    Mangro (S133) Hangor Karachi DCN (C.N. Ciotat, Le Trait) July 1968 February 1970 August 1970
    Ghazi (ex-Cachalote)* (S135) Hangor Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) October 1966 February 1968 January 1969
    Hashmat (ex-Astrant) (S135) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1976 December 1977 February 1979
    Hurmat (ex-Adventurous) (S136) Hashmat Karachi DCN (Dubigeon, Nantes) September 1977 December 1978 February 1980
    Khalid (S137) Khalid Karachi DCNI (Cherbourg) July 1995 August 1998 September 1999
    Saad (S138) Khalid Karachi Karachi Shipyard June 1998 2000 December 2003
    Hamza (S139) Khalid Karachi Shipyard January 1997 2005 2006

    *Purchased second-hand from Portugal.
    Sources:
    A.D. Baker III, Combat Fleets of the World: 2000-2001 (Annapolis: U.S. Naval Institute, 2000).
    "Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website, http://www.globalsecurity.org
    Zarar Khan, "Pakistan inducts first locally built submarine into navy," Associated Press, December 12, 2003; in Lexis-Nexis, http://web.lexis-nexis.com.

    Sources:
    [1]Abhijit Bhattacharyya, "Rise of an oily Navy," The Pioneer, August 9, 2000; in "Indian daily views implications of shifting of Pak Navy bases," FBIS Document SAP20000809000038.
    [2] Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Shahid Karimullah, as cited in Zarar Khan, "Pakistan navy to get four frigates from China," Associated Press, September 15, 2004; in Lexis-Nexis, http://web.lexis-nexis.com.
    [3]Edward C. Whitman, "Air-Independent Propulsion: AIP Technology Creates A New Undersea Threat," U.S. Navy Website, http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...propulsion.htm.
    [4] "Pakistan - Navy," Global Security Website, http://www.globalsecurity.org.
    [5] Jacques Isnard, "A Navy to a large extent under France's wing," Le Monde online edition, http://www.lemonde.fr, May 9, 2002; in "Report details close links between France and Pakistani Navy," FBIS Document EUP20020509000030.
    [6] Interview with Admiral Fasih Bokhari, Chief of Naval Staff, "The importance of the Pakistani Navy for its country's security," Naval Forces, 1999, Vol. 20, No. 1, pp. 22-25; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb.
    [7] Interview with Admiral Shahid Karimullah, Chief of Naval Staff, Pakistani Navy by Wolfgang Legien; in "Austral-Asian security comments: Navy chiefs interviewed by Naval Forces editor-in-chief," Naval Forces, 2003, No. 2, pp.55; in ProQuest Information and Learning Company, http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb.
    [8] "PN’s achievement," The News, August 27, 2002; in "Pakistan daily sees critical role for Navy as protector of country’s coastline," FBIS Document SAP20020827000076.
    [9] Zahid Hussain Karachi, "Pakistan May Put Nukes on Submarines," Associated Press, February 22, 2001. http://www.nukewatch.org/media/more_...01/PMPNOS.html.
    [10] "Pak Rules Out Nuclear Platform for Subs, To Upgrade Navy," The Press Trust of India Limited, January 15, 2003; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
    [11] "World Roundup," The Miami Herald, January 26, 2003, p13. Herald Wire Services; in Dow Jones Interactive Database.
    [12] "Pakistan launches locally built submarine," Pak News online edition, http://paknews.com, August 25, 2002.
    [13] "Exocet AM.39 / MM.40," Federation of American Scientists Website, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/m...row/exocet.htm.
    http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/pakistan/index.html

    Please also see for why it's such a bad idea for India...

    As regards the fact that Pakistan navy is the only enemy force against which the Indian navy is currently pitted against, it is not advisable to possess submarines from the same supplier. In this case the DCN may have agreed not to sell the Scorpene to Pakistan as has been promised to the Pakistan navy that it would not sell the Agosta- 90B to India, but it is possible for the adversary to understand the exploitation doctrine of each others submarine.

    Besides, there already exists the infrastructure and assembly line including trained human resource that built the Type 209 Shishumar class submarines. It would be a great folly to allow this trained human resource of technicians and builders to be left to decay and building a new set of technical experts that would involve greater fiscal resources. At the same time it is advisable to stick to one source and prevent such a wide inventory, especially since HDW and DCN are sales rivals.

    (Dr Vijay Sakhuja is Maritime Security analyst and Research Fellow, Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi.The views expressed are his own)
    http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers14%5Cpaper1382.html
    Last edited by FreeAsia2000; 02-27-2006 at 05:45 AM.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAsia2000
    what's the name for this new generation submarine ?
    the name given by fench to that project is Marlin..

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRKUnderground
    They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.
    Pakistan doesn't need a nuclear submarine. Too costly to maintain and France won't be too keen of handing over sub nuke tech to another country. As a matter of fact, the only country that shares its sub nuke tech is Russia.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    There isn't a lot of info on project Marlin.

    Anybody have any specific info ?

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRKUnderground
    They might possibly be turnin the Agostas nuclear. Who knows. What Pakistan really needs is something that can fire the Babur.
    can u please elaborate more on babur?? is it some slbm/slcm?

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAsia2000
    There isn't a lot of info on project Marlin.

    Anybody have any specific info ?
    Since it is a new generation sub, I doubt there will be much info available. It seems like the media will be kept in the dark about this project for some time to come. Maybe this is Pakistan's response to the ATV?

    To ajaybhutani, the Babur is a cruise missile that Pakistan has in its arsenal which was finally revealed in August of 2005. Many news outlets have reported that Pakistan is planning to make an air-launched and sub launched version of the Babur and the range may also be extended to 1000 km.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Here is another article I just found:



    Pakistan Seeks 3 Subs From France
    New Design Would Free DCN of Spanish Partnership
    By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

    Pakistani interest in three attack submarines is forcing France to make hard decisions over industrial interests vested in the DCN naval systems company and diplomatic and economic relations with Spain and India, analysts said.

    Islamabad intends to spend $1 billion to $1.2 billion on three patrol submarines, preferably of a new design from DCN but possibly of the German 214 class, a Pakistani official said.

    But the potential sale of high-tech weapons to Pakistan may be too much for the French government to swallow. The deal would steady employment at DCN’s Cherbourg sub yard, but would likely antagonize India, with whom Paris recently signed a defense agreement. New Delhi also is a submarine customer, having recently purchased six of DCN’s Scorpene attack subs.

    The sale of an all-French design also might raise hackles in Spain. The Spanish are partners in building the Scorpene, but Spain’s Navantia yard is teaming with Lockheed Martin on its S-80 boat.

    The Pakistani official said Islamabad “is interested in a single-hull submarine,” distinct from quieter, more expensive double-hulled boats. “We have made it known there is a requirement for three submarines.”
    Islamabad wants a formal offer within six months from Armaris, the naval marketing joint venture of DCN and French systems house Thales, so it can order the subs within a year, the official said.

    The country also is looking to buy 25 to 30 highly capable fighter aircraft, and is considering the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab JAS 39 Gripen, the official said. A Pakistani delegation is due to go to Italy next month to see the Typhoon go through flight trials, he said.

    The pursuit of the Pakistan deal shows DCN wants to develop new subs for export.

    “This is a logical move, given DCN’s strong installed base in SSKs [diesel-powered attack submarines] and the attractions of the SSK market,” said Sash Tusa, an analyst at brokerage Goldman Sachs.
    But going it alone might be seen as undermining all the recent talk of building European defense, French government and industry executives said.

    The submarine sale underlines the clash between industrial and diplomatic interests for France, an analyst said.

    “Industry needs it, but the French government does not want to contribute to a potential arms race in the region and cannot afford to upset India,” said Loic Tribot La Spiere, chief executive of the think tank Centre d’Etude et Prospective Strategique.

    French military ties with Pakistan date back three decades. The Pakistani Navy was an early export customer of DCN’s Daphne submarine in the mid-1960s, setting the bar for other navies that operated near the Persian Gulf. Pakistan bought three Agosta 90B boats, dubbed the Khalid class, in the mid-1990s. Pakistan’s Air Force has flown the French-built Dassault Mirage III and V fighters.

    This longstanding relationship gives DCN an edge in the competition, the Pakistani official said.

    “We know their processes, their procedures,” the official said.

    Wanted: Export Approval

    But if Paris withholds export approval, Pakistan might turn to the 214 submarine built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), part of Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. It also might consider buying the subs from China, he said.

    DCN is keen to sell, but has had trouble prying export approval from the high-level Commission Interministérielle D’exportation des Matériels de Guerre.

    Officially, Armaris has not proposed a new submarine, because it lacks approval for an offer from the committee. But that did not prevent Armaris officials from making an informal product briefing on a DCN design to a Pakistani delegation led by a senior naval officer in mid-February, here.
    The Pakistani official said delegation members were given to understand that DCN had been cleared by the export committee to make an offer. A French industry executive, however, said there is no offer because clearance has been withheld.

    And a French defense official said, “The attitude towards Pakistan is a very cautious one, where great prudence is needed.”
    Armaris declined comment. The Ministry of Defense spokesman was not immediately available. The Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister’s office referred questions to the Ministry of Defense.
    A DCN spokeswoman said the company did not discuss its clients and declined comment.

    Still, the Pakistani official said his government expects a formal offer next month from Armaris.

    DCN’s new design, code-named Marlin, closely resembles the 10-year-old Scorpene design, but would include newer technology, including features of the Barracuda nuclear attack boats to be built for the French Navy.
    Marlin would have an air-independent propulsion (AIP) unit, the Pakistani official said. AIP, an alternative to batteries, allows longer periods of running submerged. Pakistan’s third and last Agosta boat is being fitted with a Mesma AIP system, and the two earlier boats will be retrofitted.
    Pakistan has not asked for the Scorpene because it does not want to buy the same product as the Indian Navy.

    DCN barely made any money on the Agosta deal, the French defense official said. He said it was unlikely the French government would agree to sell new subs at basement prices, the official said.
    Pakistan said it got a bad deal because it paid $1.2 billion for the three subs, including a 50 percent down payment on signing in 1994, and the program is three years late.

    Independence from Spain

    If a Pakistan deal can be struck, DCN would regain the ability to export subs without Spanish participation.

    In 1997, the French company partnered with Navantia predecessor Bazan to design the Scorpene because it lacked enough money to do it alone. But healthy sales have padded DCN’s cash accounts to some 2 billion euros ($2.4 billion), giving it enough money to invest in its own design.
    Still, the Spanish connection was key to selling Scorpene to Chile, which opened up the Latin American market. But when Navantia installed a combat management system from Lockheed Martin, DCN officials took the rejection of a similar French system as a snub.

    One French analyst said Navantia’s purchase of the Lockheed system was influenced by the U.S. administration, which is seeking a way to keep its 2001 pledge to sell eight diesel subs to Taiwan. Since Spain has limited trade with China, Madrid could sell the S-80s to Taiwan with little economic consequences, the analyst said.

    Into the balance must be thrown France’s relations with India, which has just bought six Scorpene subs armed with MBDA anti-ship missiles. French President Jacques Chirac visited India and signed a defense agreement on Feb. 19 aimed at boosting industrial cooperation, as well as a preliminary pact to help New Delhi develop civil nuclear energy.

    During Chirac’s visit, India’s state airline formally inked a purchase of 43 Airbus airliners, worth $2.5 billion at list price, and 15 ATR regional turboprops.

    Dassault Aviation is waiting to see the terms of India’s tender for 126 combat aircraft, and is ready to pitch the Rafale fighter jet, having withdrawn the Mirage 2000-5 from competition.

    Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaybhutani
    can u please elaborate more on babur?? is it some slbm/slcm?
    It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRKUnderground
    It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.
    Isn't the Babur subsonic ? what use is a subsonic slbm ?

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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeAsia2000
    Isn't the Babur subsonic ? what use is a subsonic slbm ?
    The Tomahawk is subsonic and it works. It's low flying and it has it's advantages. More accurate than a missile skimming at mach 2.3.

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    Astra is offline New Member
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    Re: France to build new generation submarine for Pakistan

    It's a cruise missiles, and the Pakistani Navy is saying their trying to make it fit on a submarine and an aircraft.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Its a Chinese made cruise missile isnt it?

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