SinoDefence Forum

Shahid

I've been doing a lot of research lately about the different calibres and ammo types in service with armed forces around the world to see if I can determine which one has the best overall caracteristics and fits better with modern warfare requirements. Unortunately I couldn't even come close to making a final choice.

Unlike a gun that must fit with the morphology and the physiological caracteristics of the shooter, a bullet's caracteristics must fit with those of the target, which is, in this case, the average human body. Along with some other parameters, like the distance or range, the protection of the target (Kevlar helmet, body armor), the ballistic performance, etc... that must be determined.

I thought that should be easy to pick the round combining the best caracteristics, but I was wrong.

Every cartridge features some good performances. For example, the russian 7,62 can penetrate a Kevlar helmet at range greater than 300 m and go through a brick wall at close range, but the 5,56 NATO round inflicts greater damage by rotating inside the body and making a big nasty hole. And so on. And every round type has it's own fanatic supporters that say "it's the best of them all". Obviously you cannot have the best range AND the greatest lethality AND the best penetration ...unless you carry something more like an AA gun than an assault rifle.

And there are also some "bullet of the future" types; although I am still sceptic about the ultra small calibre rounds combined with 3-round bursts, and I beleive that flechette (dart) rounds is bullshit, being deflected by rain or leafs!

So I said I should try to settle this matter in a scientific way, with the help of some guys that have real shooting and field experience.

So here we go.

I suggest we proceed step by step, by answering the following questions :

1- According to most recent analysis, what is the average range of a gunfight in modern warfare (including urban warfare)?

2- What is the maximal range at which a soldier can differentiate friend from foe with no additional optics (Daylight and full moon light)?

3- What is the maximal range at which an average soldier with no sharpshooter training can accurately take down a target, with optical sights?

Then we shall evaluate the effectiveness of different rounds at these ranges against soft or hardened targets. But first things first.

Gollevainen

Well I can do my part...(by the way, I deleted this same post from the FAQ thread, It's best to deal this subject in it's own thread

I've only fired with finnish RK62 which is our own version of the AKM tough with major differences. Also as a artillerist, our infantry training was quite minimal, tough we did learn something...

So here's my best awnsers, I hope others will fill the blanks..

Depends where you are. Here in finland the fightings would most likely happen in woods and terrain with very short lines of fire so I'd say 150-300 meters max.

In daylight it's pretty much 100-150 meters. Behind that its very difficoult to see details and thus making solid recocnitions. In midnisght's moonlight, its 20-30 meters maxium, tough in wintertime snowdresses makes the recocnition very hard so it's more like 1 meter. In pit black night the effect is pretty much the same...That's why there are paswords and combatcodes...if the closing person fails to awnser, it most likely enemy...

This is harder bit for me, as I've enver fired a sniper rifle, and also i'm active sports shooter so my shooting skills are (without any selfindulgement ) better than average...

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isthvan

On standard European terrain average range is 200-300m, in urban environment up to 100m… Naturally this depends on terrain…

Golly pretty much covered that…

Well like Golly said this is difficult question… Whit standard sight on AK I was able to hit targets up to 250m… I didn’t use optic sights while in service but I had opportunity to shot from standard issue sniper rifle before and managed to hit target at 700m… I guess that whit few shoots any soldier would manage to do the same…

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"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

Shahid

Great, that's a good begining.

Is there anybody that wants to contest these informations? Or should I take it as definitive?

Believe me, in the desert even if you can see as far as your sights go, you cannot differentiate between a man and a goat if it is farther than 200 m, with the hot air moving like water and the sun burning your eyes. You only see something is moving.

Does anybody seriously think that a regular soldier can take down a target with his standard AR at a range above 200-250 m, even with a scope?

Gollevainen

In one of our live firing execise we where positioned in billboxes and shoot these janter type of targets. The furthest where about 300-350 meters away and I didn't even try to shoot them, it would have been waste of ammo. But I heard someone managed to down one of the targets at that distance but it was pure luck...

But the thing is you don't go shooting targets that you might hit...If you spot a figure in 300 meters range (you still cannot know wheter its enemy or not) you should not fire as you most likely miss and you blow your own and propaply your accompanies cover. When a enemy troops tryes to ampush your fire position (the most likely gunfight that we artillerist would face) in the ideal conditions where we all have managed to man the posts, you are allowed to open fire only at the squadleaders command (he fires the first round) and if he has the nerves, he will let the enemy come as close as possiple to maximize the effect of groupfiring...If and when the enemy retreats, you can try those 300 meters shots if there is a clear line of fire...

But I doupt anyone can contest what me and Isthvan has said, only complete it, Utelore and Rommel could add great deal...(if the buggers manages to drag their arse over here... )

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Shahid

So if in brief :

-The average range for an occasional and "instinctive" target acquisition and engagement would be 100-150m in open terrain, daylight, and something like 20-100m in urban war or low visibility situation (at your own risk).
-You cannot even dream to take down an enemy soldier above 250-300m even with a scope on your AR (without sharpshooter training... or being blessed by god.)

So we should not even care about the ballistic of a bullet above 300m.

Now the second point :

-At what range is the full-auto mode of an AR accurate, in long bursts? I mean; Can you place multiple shots at an enemy at a range of approximatively 100m, or do you need to incapacitate him with one shot?

Gollevainen

Well I think in assault rifles case the distances over 300 meters are irrelevant to the ammunitions performances, so i think you are in right tracks.

With a scope that is possiple, but then again normal soldiers are not issued with scopes so we should concerate on the optical sights (disgluding the rifles with build in scope like the AUG)

Depends formt the shooting position. If you lay down and can hold the clip to the ground then it could be possiple to fire multible hits in 100m with full-auto (rapid fire), But uneccecerical. You hit far more accurately when using the singlefire mode and you can achive quite fast rate of fire with this mode alone and still keep the firing at hands. Our trainers constantly told us that we are no US army, we cannot affoard lots of bullets so the full-auto mode was basicly forbidden form us. It's most usefull in suprize situations and with very low distances, like when enmy is storming to your positions with several mens at distance bellow 50 meters...It's more of a morale support that you have the ability. But I think this may be the matter that is different in other militarier, but least in here the main mode of fire is the single shots.

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isthvan

Well whit scope I don’t see any problems whit hitting target at that distance… Even without sharpshooter training…

Basically yes but like I said this depend on terrain…

Well in my experience full auto is always waste of ammo… Short burst works much better, you have better accuracy… As for one shot question we were told to fire 2-3 bullets in target… Better safe then sorry…

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"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

maglomanic

A very interesting discussion here guys

Ok i have a few silly questions of my own if they are out of context please feel free to kick em out of this thread

1)Are handguns more difficult to be accurate with than Rifles??

2)What is the best way to co-ordinate trigger and grip control to avoid jerking/flinching which adevrsely affects accuracy? (i just started shooting from a hand gun and i suck at 5 yards )

Any good reading links regarding handgun use would be appreciated.

Shahid

I think I forgot a point :

-In real fightiong situation, with all the stress and pressure being putt on the shooter, to what extend do you think we should cut down the above determined range of effective engagement?

I would like to have the advice of some guys with real gunfight experience here.

-And for the burst question, can you shoot the target at long range multiple times before it falls or dropes to the ground? Isn't it necessary to take it down with a single shot? (This is do determine the minimal lethality of a bullet.)

Shahid

Then you might be blessed by god

But seriously, are standard ARs accurate enough at this range?

Surpluswarrior

I am a recreational target shooter. For a handgun, the best practice is dry-fire practice. With an unloaded handgun, carefully line up the sights so that the sight picture is correct on the target, and then slowly 'squeeze' the trigger. The actual "click" of the hammer hitting the firing pin should come as a surprise. In other words, you should not be tensing and anticipating recoil. It should be smooth and without a hitch. Your "follow-up" is also very important - make sure the sights are still on target as best you can after you have pulled the trigger.

The best way to "squeeze" the trigger is to place your trigger finger in the firing position and slowly compress your grip on the handgun until trigger has clicked. After you have become confident in dry-fire practice, where you are pulling the trigger exactly when the target is in your sights, move on to live fire practice. The same principles apply in live fire. Use a .22 handgun for practice as it may help.

Surpluswarrior

I find that handgun barrels heat quickly, and it is best to do slow-fire, letting the barrel cool between shots, if you want to shoot better at 5 yards. Also make sure your handgun is on target by firing it from a gunrest first.

As for rifles, I fired a 5.56 mm rifle in full auto during basic training. It was incredibly inaccurate, even at 50 yards. It would be much better to use semi-automatic fire at that range. The rifle shakes in your hands during full automatic fire, and any barrel movement is bad for accuracy.

With a scoped 5.56 mm C-7 (improved AR type assault rifle) it is easy to hit man-sized target at 100 and 200 meters. However, in combat, when you are moving and being fired upon, and the enemy is moving, I don't think the average conscript would be able to hit a moving enemy rifleman at 200 meters. A 20" barrel AR-15 type rifle is surprisingly accurate, but it is a whole new skillset in itself to hit a moving target, and that requires practice. The psychological effect of being under effective fire also cannot be understated. This is why infantry carries machine guns and mortars, which do most of the killing at that distance.

Surpluswarrior

You might find this interesting, it shows how different rifles can be expected to perform.

I am an average shooter, and all these targets were shot at by me, so they are a representation of the accuracy of the firearms themselves under the same shooter.

These are all 8 1/2 X 11 sheets of paper. The spread of the bullet holes indicates the accuracy of the rifle.

M-14 Rifle (scoped), 50 yards 7.62X51



Swiss K-31 (iron sights), 50 yards 7.62X55



VZ-58 Rifle (iron sights) 50 yards, 7.62X39



M-14 Rifle (scoped), 100 yards 7.62X51



VZ-58 Rifle (iron sights) 100 yards 7.62X39



Swiss K-31 Rifle (iron sights) 100 yards 7.62X55



All of the ammunition used was military surplus, so this is what the various ammunition is capable of.

I could post some pistol groups too, but they wouldn't be as pretty.

Gollevainen

I think aside Utelore (who is still absent form this converstion) is the sole of us ever been in a war and he was in tanktroops.

Anyway I try to do my best

The stress is major player. Even the stress from hard training (which tryes to simulate real combat situation) has great effects on both accuracy and awereness. And add this the fear that comes from real combat...But this coin has it's trunside. Some of us tends to be more alert under stress and the pressure brings out the best of them.

you pretty much covered the basics there. As a sportshooter (mainly rifles tough) myself I like to add few points. With pistols usually the aiming is done so that the black circle that you see form the target is above (note not in the centre) the pistols sights. So basicly it seems as you aim right to the cross of the white and black area. I'm not sure why its done so, but I think it has to do something with the pistol interupting the line of sight or something. Anyway this is how it's done by all sport shooters.
What comes to the actual triggering methods, I'm not sure if your pistol has a this sort of "premilinary pull" which means that the trigger moves little bit before it stops and comes tense right before the gun fires. Sports-shooters use this method by "taking the emptiness of" eg. pulling the trigger smoothly and then hold. The actual firing is done by mere tought and the "suprize" that Surpluss-soldier mentioned coems even faster. It's important that you don't release the trigger untill few secconds after the shot. This is for two reasons, first the round may still be in your barrel when you move the gun, and seccondly the time which the tought you send from your brains receives your finger is very very small but still rahter important. So it's good to keep the gun in the firing position untill the firing has actually happened


I hope this helped you but for the curtesy towards the orginal thread maker and his project, lets stick to that subject and leave other shooting related stuff in other threads...why not making completely new thread in the member's clubroom about casual shooting

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