SinoDefence Forum

Obi Wan Russell · 11-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd popeye

More BS about the QE2 class CVF by another no nothing reporter.

There's a defence review coming up after the next election (May 2010) and everyone is positioning themselves to preserve their own patch. This is often done by giving 'scare stories' to the press so that there is a public backlash against particular measures. The RAF (or rather their fanboys) have put out another scare story about massive job losses, base closures and axing both the Harrier and Tornado fleets (including the GR4s) RAF plans huge cuts in aircraft and stations - Times Online It's all fantasy at the moment, nothing has been decided but when extreme MOD proposals are waved under thenoses of bored journos they become fact. Within the MOD however extreme scenarios are dreamed up all the time in order to show ministers how stupid a particular line of thinking is. Gideon Osbourne (probably the next Chancellor, and like most of his predecessors of both parties, a complete idiot regarding money) was making a lot of noise about defence cuts only a few months ago, but has backed off after a quiet word in his ear from the likes of Liam Fox (Tory defence spokesman) who actually understand the realities of the situation. Likewise the Lib Dems were also making noises about cutting the carriers until the MP for Portsmouth (a Lib Dem) had a word with them about how cancellation would mean he and many others in the area would get the Spanish Archer at the election.

If there are cuts to be made, the British Army of the Rhine is a good candidate, after all the cold war ended in 91 so what are they still doing there? Also the overseas aid department could be safely chopped, as most of it's money (it's budget rivals the MOD!) goes straight into the pockets of dictators and their cronies, and the work it claims to do is done better by NGOs anyway. And why are we giving money to others when everyone is loudly stating we don't have enough for ourselves?

bd popeye · 11-15-2009

Thanks for you strong opinion Obi Wan! And I agree with you.

Quote:

No offense Popeye, but I know how much old plumbing and disconnected electrical runs there are in these old ships, banged up lockers and berthing spaces, tempermental old boilers, cranky evaporators, worn out shaft bearings, rusty heads and clogged plumbing. It may look nice with fresh paint on it, but there are thousands of miles of pipes and electrical runs inside that are fifty years old.

No offense taken. You speak the truth. USN CVs have high mileage. No question. Thousands upon thousands of hard miles. Power plants put to hard use. . Zillions of miles of electrical spaghetti. Pump rooms, axillary machinery...The list goes on and on.

Some ships are better cared for than others. For instance I know the Midway and Kitty Hawk were well taken care of while forward deployed in Japan. ..But the America and JFK were ridden hard and put up wet. Both ships SLEP were canceled. The JFK while she was in the midst of one..

stupid. The Constellation had only three main machinery spaces operating in her latter days because of a bent screw that was never properly repaired. Considering the complexity of those ships it is a tribute that they were maintained in any sort of operating condition.

All this being said consider the life of an CVN is 50 years.

Only one navy in the world could efficiently man and maintain an super carrier...one..The USN..

Obi Wan Russell · 11-19-2009

I get asked to explain the ski jump quite often, and to avoid repeating myself I've drawn up an explanitive diagram:

Remember aircraft leave the end of the ramp not truly 'flying' (ie supported by their wings, but they are moving upwards as well as forwards and are still accelerating.

bd popeye · 11-20-2009

Some excellent photos of the JMSDF Hyuga DDH 181

Jeff Head · 11-21-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Some excellent photos of the JMSDF Hyuga DDH 181

Great pics popeye. I have updated my WORLD WIDE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS - HYUGA CLASS PAGE

Here is one pic of the newly launched, DDH-182, Ise, (the second in class)you may not have seen.

Also, if you were not aware, here's more news. The Japanese are in the process of approving the budget for 2010 which would include a new class, the 22DDH Class (The Hyuga was the 16DDH class). This vessel would have a full-load in excess of 30,000 tons and would be 150ft longer than the Hyuga.

Here are some artist conception pictures (good ones too), with a couple comparing the new class to the Hyuga.

Mr T · 11-21-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

Also, if you were not aware, here's more news. The Japanese are in the process of approving the budget for 2010 which would include a new class, the 22DDH Class (The Hyuga was the 16DDH class). This vessel would have a full-load in excess of 30,000 tons and would be 150ft longer than the Hyuga.

Not going to happen. It's almost certain to be cut in the budget negotiations. Could be argued the MOD know that and deliberately included the plans to have something to cut to please the government.

Jeff Head · 11-21-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr T

Not going to happen. It's almost certain to be cut in the budget negotiations. Could be argued the MOD know that and deliberately included the plans to have something to cut to please the government.

Lot of folks thought the DDH16 would not happen either, yet here we sit a few years later with two of them in the water. I admit that with the more liberal government it may be very unlikely...but stranger things have happened, and the proposal has been made. Time will tell...this go around and probably in the future too.

Obi Wan Russell · 11-21-2009

It's possible you could both be right. The JMSDF/MOD might well put this design forward as a 'sacrificial lamb', knowing it won't be approved, and then as a consolation prize be allowed to order a third Hyuga instead. The 22DDH design can then sit waiting in the wings for things to improve politically a few years down the line and then re emerge as the logical follow on from the Hyugas. Either way, I think it shows the JMSDF is looking to acquire more capable aviation oriented ships in the future, most definately with an eye to countering the Chinese posture that will inevitably follow the service entry of Varyag. Having a few 22DDHs in service will allow a rapid change from ASW helo only operations to mixed helo/STOVL ops (yes I'm hinting at the Lightning, expect a few exchange postings to USMC sqns as a first step...) should a re orientation of Japan's defence posture become necessary.

bd popeye · 11-21-2009

I have to agree with Mr. T on this one. With the election of a new liberal government expect military budget cuts. They've pulled there naval forces out of the Indian Ocean region. There are even more protest against the US military on Okinawa and the Yokosuka. I could be wrong..but that's just my opinion....

Obi Wan Russell · 11-21-2009

Yes I agree too, though I was looking further ahead than the current government's term of office. As a British Prime Minister once remarked when asked why he hadn't achieved his aims whilst in office, he simply replied "Events, Dear Boy". The New Liberal Government of Japan clearly has an agenda, but I think the next five years will make things difficult for them (for example if/when the PLAN get a carrier to sea). Meanwhile the JMSDF will bide it's time, bring both Hyugas into service and operate them with as few as four helos each so as not to look 'offensive' to the government, and still plan for the next generation of 'DDHs' even if they have to wait for the next change of government.

Mr T · 11-22-2009

To be clear I was talking about the upcoming budget. I don't think the current MSDF build up plan had a requirement for such ships - unless they were intended to replace the Shirane class in the future. I had thought two more Hyugas would be ordered for that.

In the future anything could happen. But at least they've started the ball rolling with the Hyugas.

Obi Wan Russell · 11-22-2009

We are in agreement then. The 22DDH is unlikely to be ordered soon, but will probably be ordered in the next few years when circumstances are more favourable...

bd popeye · 11-22-2009

Well now we seem to all be in agreement..

Regarding the Hyuga's ..What do you fellow think the true helo capacity is of that ship.

It is some what larger than an old USN Iwo Jima class which held 24 helos and 2,100 marines(including air wing) in addition to a ships complement of 667.

Now.. The DDH 181 has much more luxurious accommodations than an Iwo Jima LPH-2. The Hyuga has 6 man state rooms for lower enlisted as an example therefore she cannot handle as many personnel as an LPH-2 class. As far as the true number of personnel she can carry I have no clue. But she can easily handle 20 helos. Time of course will tell what the ship is truely capable of.

Jeff, I noticed on your Hyuga page that you list the speed as 30+ knots. What do you base that on? That seems a little high to me. I'm thinking along the lines of 20-25 knots..maximum.

Obi Wan Russell · 11-22-2009

Having had a few hours to ponder this question (I like a ponder, it's very refreshing and leaves you feeling perky and... no wait that's something else!

), I would estimate the Hyuga's aircraft capacity as being on a par with the Italian Garibaldi at the very least. The Italian ship is smaller, but as Popeye has pointed out the Japanese have a more luxurious standard of accomodation aboard their warships and this woud probably go some way to consuming the size differential. So, in the pure ASW helo carrier role, I would reckon on a max air wing of 18-20 helos (S-70s), some on deck, some in the hangar and the rest in the air at any given time. Start adding STOVL aircraft like Harriers or Lightnings, and the overall numbers would go down a little, mainly because they don't have folding wings and take up more space, so a mixed bag of 8 fighters and 8 helos give or take as circumstances require.

bd popeye · 11-22-2009

Quote:

Start adding STOVL aircraft like Harriers or Lightnings, and the overall numbers ould go down a little, mainly because they don't have folding wings and take up more space, so a mixed bag of 8 fighters and 8 helos give or take as circumstances require.

As Jeff has pointed out some time ago it would take just slight modifications to add a ski jump to the DDH16 ships there by giving it the ability to launch Sea Harriers or the F-35B. But at this moment I'm sure the JMSDF is going to bide it's time until perhaps a more "favorable" government is elected.

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