Aircraft Carriers II

Originally Posted by harryRIEDL

do you know what happen to 700Z squadron and would it be available to be a F35B squadron also i think most of the planes will go to the navy the RAF do have the typhoon and the navy believes [well the ones iv's spoken to] that the RAF-FAA relationship will change

700NAS is the RNs new aircraft flying trials unit, and is only activated when a new aircraft type is entering service. It has a suffix which changes with each aircraft type (eg 700B for the Buccaneer S2, 700P for the Phantom FG1, 700A for the Sea Harrier and 700M for the Merlin) and once flying trials are complete the sqn disbands and it's aircraft and aircrew usually become the core of either the first operational unit to operate the type or it's Headquarters sqn (eg 700A's Sea Harrier FRS1s were passed to 899NAS which reformed the day after 700A disbanded). I would like to see an RN HQ sqn for the F-35B, which would provide an excuse to bring back 899 but at the moment the Lightning HQ/training sqn is scheduled to be 20sqn as it is now for Joint Force Harrier. Whether or not the F-35 passes through the hands of 700sqn on it's way to operational service remains to be seen, no doubt the RAF will try to head off any attempt to do so.

ex gorskhov been delayed for 3 years
Russia 3 Years Behind on India Aircraft Carrier


Russia’s main military shipyard is at least three years behind schedule on a $1.5 billion contract to modernize an aircraft carrier sold to India in 2004, Interfax news agency reported Aug. 1.
Under the contract, Sevmash shipyard in the Arctic port of Severomorsk was due by 2008 to upgrade and re-equip the ship built in 1987 to combine the power of a missile cruiser and capabilities of an aircraft carrier.
Indian media and officials have said the ship, with a squadron of Russian MIG-29 jet fighters onboard, would considerably enhance the firepower of the Indian navy and bring nuclear rival China within range.
India is the only country in South Asia that has an aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, an issue of concern for some of its smaller neighbors. Pakistan and China, with whom India has fought wars, do not have this class of ship.
Interfax quoted an unnamed "high-ranking Sevmash source" as saying that the shipyard’s Director General Vladimir Pastukhov had been fired after failing to meet deadlines.
"The contract is delayed for three years," the source said. "The realistic date ... is now 2011."
India and China are the two biggest buyers of Russian arms, accounting for nearly 90 percent of Russia’s overall annual arms exports of around $5 billion.
Interfax quoted the Sevmash source as saying the problem is due to a miscalculation of the amount of work needed to renovate the ship.
"After a more detailed examination was conducted, it became clear that the ship’s technological condition is awful and that money allocated for the renovation is not enough," he said.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2938693&C=

at this rate the CVF will be in service before gorshov

Originally Posted by harryRIEDL

at this rate the CVF will be in service before gorshov

Not only that, INS Vikrant is scheduled to enter service in 2012. If this report about Gorshkov is true, the the Indian Navy could be in a situation in which they could be trying to get 2 large and complex warships into service and get their complements trained up almost simultaneously. This could cause a big scandal in India, why wasn't Gorshkov subjected to "a more detailed examination," before India commited to the project?

Originally Posted by Neutral Zone

Not only that, INS Vikrant is scheduled to enter service in 2012. If this report about Gorshkov is true, the the Indian Navy could be in a situation in which they could be trying to get 2 large and complex warships into service and get their complements trained up almost simultaneously. This could cause a big scandal in India, why wasn't Gorshkov subjected to "a more detailed examination," before India commited to the project?

its a right scandal gorskov isn't even a very good carrier when it joins it is unsuited to STOBAR and got possibly the worst designed carrier deck in service and shouldn't have been bought in 1st place the Indians should have just kept on to Vircaat till the Indigenous aircraft carrier built which is a much better design which is an enlarged Cavour.

not convinced by STOBAR too many sacrifices for not enough benefits over STOVL and not as good as CATOBAR .

i expect their may be more delays

The Indians may well find it is quicker and cheaper to refit Viraat with arrestor wires and projector sights if they want to get the mig 29s in service on time. Viraat (as Hermes) used ot be a CTOL carrier so fitting arrestor gear shouldn't be too hard and she could then provide the training needed to bring the Mig pilots up to standard. That might ease the issue of bringing the two other carriers into service, at least give them a head start. The whole Mig 29/Stobar/ Gorshkov descision was more political than practical and no doubt some in the IN are regretting that now. Still I expect they will show their usual professional spirit and maintain the high standards in seeing the project through, however belatedly.

If this report is 50% true should the Indians persue another CV as a "stop gap measure"? In other words could the In be loaned the Invincible by the RN? After all the Indians have already Harriers and are proficent in the use of the ski ramp.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

If this report is 50% true should the Indians persue another CV as a "stop gap measure"? In other words could the In be loaned the Invincible by the RN? After all the Indians have already Harriers and are proficent in the use of the ski ramp.

This is not the preferred course of the Indian Navy, but bd popeye makes a good point. If, as reports suggest, Gorshkov is to be delayed three more years and that its condition is much worse than expected, one or two British "Invincible" class carriers could help take some of the strain off of the ex-"Hermes". Mind you, I don't know how long it would take to bring an "Invincible" class carrier back into service or how crewing one or even two such carriers would affect or disrupt the manning and training of the new carriers due to come into service in the next decade. A short-term fix may end up causing some long-term pain. I imagine though, that the Brits would be willing to send a carrier (or maybe even two) relatively cheaply to India, and the two have had great success in the past in such projects.

As for the Gorshkov: to be honest, India may be well advised to cut its losses here, if possible, cancel the Gorshkov reconstruction, and scrounge in order to build a third Indigenous Aircraft Carrier themselves. Russia is jacking up prices after the fact and greatly delaying deliveries, as their armaments industries just don't seem to be quite up to the job. Cancelling the Gorshkov is a [I]LOT[I] of money lost, and will have effects on relations with Russia, but perhaps, given the Gorshkov's questionable material condition and the great delay and further expense involved in pursuing the project to its completion, it may be making the best of what seems to be an increasingly difficult situation.

I'm sure we could flog them one of our Invincibles for a reasonable price - HMS Invincible is currently in reserve and unlikely to come out of it. Then again I have no idea how much life is left in the girl for the Indian Navy to exploit.

Originally Posted by Norfolk

As for the Gorshkov: to be honest, India may be well advised to cut its losses here, if possible, cancel the Gorshkov reconstruction, and scrounge in order to build a third Indigenous Aircraft Carrier themselves. Russia is jacking up prices after the fact and greatly delaying deliveries, as their armaments industries just don't seem to be quite up to the job. Cancelling the Gorshkov is a [I]LOT[I] of money lost, and will have effects on relations with Russia, but perhaps, given the Gorshkov's questionable material condition and the great delay and further expense involved in pursuing the project to its completion, it may be making the best of what seems to be an increasingly difficult situation.

It may come to that but personally I think that as they've spent so much money on it so far they might as well bite the bullet and write the Russians another cheque. There may also be steep penalty clauses in the contract if India wanted to back out. The whole business has the appearance of a complete fiasco and I get the feeling that Russia has taken India for a ride on this project. As Harry mentioned above, they're not even getting a particularly capable carrier, the illustrations and models of Vikramaditya as completed look ridiculously cramped and contrived. This ship will have a maximum air group of 30 fixed and rotary wing aircraft, the same as the slightly smaller Vikrant class ships! Of course had things gone to plan they would have got a bargain, but now it looks like a very bitter lesson.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

If this report is 50% true should the Indians persue another CV as a "stop gap measure"? In other words could the In be loaned the Invincible by the RN? After all the Indians have already Harriers and are proficent in the use of the ski ramp.

It's possible, but unlikely unless Viraat develops serious mechanical problems in the near future preventing her from continuing in service. Also, the Indians tend to procrastinate over these decisions for years (look at how long they took to close the deal on Gorshkov) so by the time a deal was struck the new Vikrant might be ready for sea! Having said that, I still think all of the Invincibles are destined for further careers probably in the Indian ocean and/or Pacific. Pakistan might try to build on it's new friendlier relations with the west (still a long way to go on that though) and buy Invincible as part of a package deal for F-35Bs just as India bought Mig29s with a carrier thrown in. Invincible is in good condition, well maintained, fitted with modern command and control facilities, good accomodation and a modern radar suite (she is far in advance of anything in the Pakistani Navy or the IN for that matter) so would represent a real step change in capability for either Navy. Without a carrier, the PN will always be an 'also ran' in any naval conflict in the Indian Ocean. Invincible won't officially be 'on the market' until 2010, and Illustrious and Ark Royal will be flying the white ensign for quite a while after that (at least 2014 and 2016 respectively, though I suspect Ark will be retained a while longer in the LPH role simply because it is cheaper to do so than buying a replacement in the short term).

Originally Posted by Neutral Zone

It may come to that but personally I think that as they've spent so much money on it so far they might as well bite the bullet and write the Russians another cheque. There may also be steep penalty clauses in the contract if India wanted to back out. The whole business has the appearance of a complete fiasco and I get the feeling that Russia has taken India for a ride on this project. As Harry mentioned above, they're not even getting a particularly capable carrier, the illustrations and models of Vikramaditya as completed look ridiculously cramped and contrived. This ship will have a maximum air group of 30 fixed and rotary wing aircraft, the same as the slightly smaller Vikrant class ships! Of course had things gone to plan they would have got a bargain, but now it looks like a very bitter lesson.

thats the thing i hate most about the deal that their is no improvement in the carrier over a HMS Hermes in a design of TWICE THE TONNAGE with that horrible thin carrier deck a that odd placement of the lifts and lastly that massive island .
they seem to be stuck in this deal and the Russians are demanding more money for the Su30 I wouldn't want to be the Indian defense minster

you don't think the Indians would want Kitty hawk when it retires and buying Super hornets or rafeals

Originally Posted by harryRIEDL

you don't think the Indians would want Kitty hawk when it retires and buying Super hornets or rafeals

Kitty Hawk is a fine ship but it's getting on for 50 years old. By the time India could get it ready for service, and that's if America would sell, which I don't think is likely, the indigenous ships would be entering service. Those ships are meant for the Mig-29K (contract cost $740 million) and I don't think there'd be any logic in buying a CTOL aircraft to serve as an interim measure for a few years before retirement.

I'm trying to figure out how much this debacle is eventually going to cost India, according to Bharat-Rakshak.com, the ship itself was free but India had to pay between $675 to $700 million dollars for the refit. Was that the original cost or the latest estimate? If Gorshkov is as bad as that report made out then this figure is going to be well in excess of $1 billion dollars all for a pretty minimal capability gain. At least the current defence minister will be able to argue that the contract wasn't signed on his watch!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Vikramaditya.html

Originally Posted by Neutral Zone

Kitty Hawk is a fine ship but it's getting on for 50 years old. By the time India could get it ready for service, and that's if America would sell, which I don't think is likely, the indigenous ships would be entering service. Those ships are meant for the Mig-29K (contract cost $740 million) and I don't think there'd be any logic in buying a CTOL aircraft to serve as an interim measure for a few years before retirement.

I'm trying to figure out how much this debacle is eventually going to cost India, according to Bharat-Rakshak.com, the ship itself was free but India had to pay between $675 to $700 million dollars for the refit. Was that the original cost or the latest estimate? If Gorshkov is as bad as that report made out then this figure is going to be well in excess of $1 billion dollars all for a pretty minimal capability gain. At least the current defence minister will be able to argue that the contract wasn't signed on his watch!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Vikramaditya.html

do you mean loss because according to global security gorshov can carry 9 less aircraft than hermes
and on the same site it claims an air group of 37 for hermes 30 sea harriers 7 sea kings http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raat-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...itya-specs.htm
also why did they keep the elevator by the island right in the center right on the flight line of both the launch and the recovery areashttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/r-vikramaditya-schem.htm but seeing how this projects going they properly couldn't change it.

Originally Posted by harryRIEDL

do you mean loss because according to global security gorshov can carry 9 less aircraft than hermes
and on the same site it claims an air group of 37 for hermes 30 sea harriers 7 sea kings http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raat-specs.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...itya-specs.htm
also why did they keep the elevator by the island right in the center right on the flight line of both the launch and the recovery areashttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/r-vikramaditya-schem.htm but seeing how this projects going they properly couldn't change it.

Sea Harriers are not as capable as MiG-29K's...

Originally Posted by Pointblank

Sea Harriers are not as capable as MiG-29K's...

but you can turn them around twice as fast and have a much faster sortie rate and have more in the air at the same time