Aircraft Carriers II

Originally Posted by hkbc

That was British doctrine in the late fifties, forget about fighter planes just use SAMs, it didn't hold up to scrutiny, 50 years later the UK is protected by fighters not SAMs.

Iran's best bet to defend it's airspace is to ensure non of it's neighbours will host the USAF under threat of ballistic missile attack. Failing that actually take out the any nearby land based airfields using ballistic missiles, this will curtail the tempo of the strikes by forcing longer round trips from more distant bases. There will still be the strikes from USN aircraft and it won't look pretty but if they still have any working AIM54's left it will allow their planes to engage from a safe stand-off distance negating the any dog fighting advantages of the F-18 the odds will be better than just sitting behind a SAM screen.

Iranian MRBMs can reach Israel which is why it has an ABM system and is so vocal about the Iranian Nuclear Bomb Threat.

Back on topic this why the US Navy invests in ballistic missile defense (park a vessel offshore from an ally to reassure them) and keeps 11 carriers (on the off chance there's no friendly airbases nearby!)

Well it depends on how good their SAM systems are too. But I do agreed with you that jet planes are very effective aerial defenses. A country's air defense kinda need both working together with the search and radar systems to be effective.

SAM is lazy and incompetant persons air defence

best way to engage a enemy fighter is to use your own fighter to engage

European Carrier Group Interoperability Initiative

Exercise "Levante 12"

PACIFIC OCEAN (Oct. 9, 2012) An Army MH-47G Chinook medium assault helicopter assigned to the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Wash., conducts deck landing qualifications aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Makin Island (LHD 8) following the ship's visit for San Francisco Fleet Week 2012. This is the first time Makin Island has conducted flight operations with Army Chinooks. The U.S. Navy is reliable, flexible, and ready to respond worldwide on, above, and below the sea. Join the conversation on social media using #warfighting. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class David McKee/Released)

The above pic prompted me to look for US Apache helicopters on US Navy ships in the navy.mil picture database...

Such pics are quite rare:

Atlantic Ocean (Feb. 1, 2005) - A U.S. Army AH-64 Apache helicopter prepares to launch from the flight deck aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Nassau (LHA 4) during Joint Shipboard Weapons and Ordnance (JSWORD) training.

ARABIAN SEA (June 23, 2012) Aviation Boatswain's Mate (Handling) 3rd Class Hannah Marihugh launches an AH-64D Longbow Apache helicopter assigned to 3-159 Attack Reconnaissance Battalion off the flight deck of the amphibious transport dock ship USS New York (LPD 21).

Why are US Army Apache on US Navy vessels such a rare occurrence? Contrary to (most) European armies, US Army generally don't deploy with US Navy? Is the majority of US Army pilots qualified for naval operations?

I know US Marines are there for this very task and they have their own attack helicopters. But to me, the more the better. Would be nice to be able to deploy AH64 from LHD and LHA "just in case".

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

SAM is lazy and incompetant persons air defence

best way to engage a enemy fighter is to use your own fighter to engage

When it come to Iran, it is not lazy, it is survival, there is no chance in hell it will come out of alive going toe to toe with US and Israel air force.

They can invest however they want, but after the 1st week of full blown war, those air craft will be reduced to pieces in the air or on the ground.

Why are US Army Apache on US Navy vessels such a rare occurrence? Contrary to (most) European armies, US Army generally don't deploy with US Navy? Is the majority of US Army pilots qualified for naval operations?

Don't know.. but this is more than likely the reason why..

I know US Marines are there for this very task and they have their own attack helicopters.

True^^ the USMC has more helos that most of the armies on this planet except China.

In 1994 an invasion of Haiti was planned. The USS America CV-66 was loaded with USMC,USAF and US Army helos for the attack that never occurred.

On 13 September [1994], less than two weeks after leaving the shipyard, America was in the Atlantic heading for Haiti in support of Operation Uphold Democracy. As the world focused on the situation in Haiti, America carried not her normal air wing, but elements of the Joint Special Operations Command and helicopters of the 160th Army Special Aviation Regiment. Arriving at VooDoo Station on 17 September, word was received the next day to execute the planned invasion of Haiti that evening. However 45 minutes after being issued, the order was cancelled by President Clinton.

For the next 30 days, America experienced possibly the most unique situation in her history. More than 2,000 Army, Air force and Marine Corps special forces troops, and helicopters, melded together. During the ensuing month, 400 sorties were launched with a 96% completion rate. Released on 18 October, America was back in familiar Norfolk four days later.

Your pic reminds me of:

On 2 August 1990, Iraq invaded its smaller neighbor to the south to make his "19th province" and earn extra space seaboard. The tension in the region is at its height, and at the time, it is a time for Western governments feared that Saudi Arabia is the next target of the Iraqi army whose troops trained and most are better equipped deployed. The United States respond by launching "Operation Desert Shield" (Desert Shield), Operation Salamander is the French response.

Task Group 623.2 commissioned by CA Wild and composed of Clemenceau, Colbert and Var. The rest of the air group: four Br.1050 Alizé (4F), eight Puma (5th RHC) and two AS.365F Dauphin (23.S) is picked up in the afternoon. The aircraft carrier sailed from Djibouti on August 28 and after a series of exercises in the Gulf of Oman with the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates and Oman, it transits to Yanbu to disembark, September 24, the elements of the 5th RHC.

Carriers do make nice transport vessels

Originally Posted by navyreco

Your pic reminds me of:

Carriers do make nice transport vessels

yes they do..

Here's a pic of the USS Ranger CV-61 loaded with the crews private autos! Probally on it's way to the shipyard in Bremerton WA. date unknown

May 1975... USS Midway (CVA-41) On the way to Guam after craning aboard over 100 USAF aircraft from AFB Utapo Thailand.

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BREMERTON, Wash. (Jan. 10, 2011) Sailors man the rails as the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) arrives in Bremerton, Wash. Ronald Reagan is entering a docking planned incremental availability period for upgrades and repairs. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Robert Winn/Released) [/QUOTE]


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SAN DIEGO (Jan. 9, 2012) are stored in the hangar bay of the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) during its homeport change to Naval Base Kitsap for a scheduled dock planned incremental availability maintenance. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communications Specialist 3rd Class Shawn J. Stewart/Released)

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SAN DIEGO (Dec. 2, 2010) The privately owned vehicles of Sailors assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN 68) are parked aboard Nimitz in preparation for the ship's port change from Naval Base Coronado to Naval Base Kitsap at Bremerton, Wash. The ship is onloading more than 400 vehicles for the transit to Washington as part of an Opportune Lift program to assist Sailors and their families with the move. Nimitz is scheduled to conduct a docking planned incremental availability upon arriving in Washington. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Thomas G. Siniff/Released)

August 1965, Mayport, Florida, USS Boxer (LPH-4) seen here just prior to departing for Vietnam with elements of the Army's First Cavalry Division on board. She carried 1200 personnel, 205 helicopters and 6 OV-1 airplanes to the combat zone. Aircraft on her flight deck include 6 OV-1 (dark colored-forward); 4 CH-54 (white-just forward of island); 56 CH-47 (dark colored-amidships and aft) and 36 UH-1 (white-amidships and forward). The remaining 109 helicopters are presumably stowed on Boxer' hangar deck.
Official U.S. Army Photograph, from the collections of the Naval Historical Center. US Navy photo # NH 97285

Originally Posted by navyreco

European Carrier Group Interoperability Initiative

Exercise "Levante 12"


[G]

What ship is this and what helos is it carrying?

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

What ship is this and what helos is it carrying?

Italian Navy Cavour and AgustaWestland AH-101 Merlin

Some interesting points regarding CVF

Originally Posted by jonodavies12

Not a bad talk really, most interesting things that have been discussed on here are,

• The ship is generally completed to a commercial standard, only the military parts are to military standard.
• Mostly a single hull, with double hull in places of importance.
• Bits of Trivia,
- At the join between deck and ski-ramp, there is an intentional 10mm step.
- Being fitted with what are going to be the largest lifts ever fitted to an AC.
- The project is at the moment a month ahead of schedule.
• Regarding Cats and Traps conversion,
- 1 extra sponson on the port side would be needed.
- There are compartments left for C&T equipment.

Asked him at the end where the government got their £2bn conversion figure from, bearing in mind this is the head of engineering at Babcock, he said he had no idea. :L
Went on to say it was mostly due to it is untested technology and the risks involved.

from Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion - Page 533

The Vikramaditya saga: If nothing else goes wrong then India will recieve the Vikramaditya in the fourth quarter of 2013.

It’s official, Gorshkov gets delayed by another year

In a blow to the Indian Navy’s aircraft carrier programme, visiting Russian defence minister Anatoly Serdyukov on Wednesday confirmed that the Indian Navy would receive the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya (formerly called the Gorshkov), only a year from now.
Business Standard had reported last month (September 18, 2012, ‘“Gorshkov curse” continues, aircraft carrier fails trials’) that the 45,000 tonne aircraft carrier, which Russia was to deliver to India in 2008, would now be delivered after October 2013, having suffered a major engine failure during ongoing sea trials in the Barents Sea.

On Wednesday in New Delhi, a visibly embarrassed Serdyukov admitted at a press conference, “We believe the transfer of the ship from Russia to the authorities in India will take place in the fourth quarter of 2013.”

His stony-faced Indian counterpart, AK Antony, who sat next to Serdyukov without looking at him, kept open the option of invoking a penalty clause in the contract which allows India to penalise Russia for the delay, to the extent of five per cent of the ship’s cost. Asked specifically about the penalty clause, Antony responded, “These are issues we will discuss later… not now. Now, our main concern is the early delivery (of the Vikramaditya).”

Adding to Antony’s discomfiture, Serdyukov also stated that the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) India and Russia are co-developing, would only start production by 2020. In that case, it would not enter service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) before 2022-23. Antony has earlier stated the FGFA would join the IAF by 2017.

Serdyukov is in New Delhi for the 12th meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation, a government-to-government structure that India has only with Russia, its biggest arms market.

But the long-playing story of INS Vikramaditya continues to batter Russia’s image as an arms supplier to India. Besides the five-year delay (assuming the vessel is delivered next year), Russia has raised the cost of the Vikramaditya by as much as three-fold. In 2004, India signed an agreement to pay Russia $947 million to refurbish the Gorshkov, which the Russian Navy was not accepting after a boiler room explosion incapacitated the vessel. While the vessel itself has been given “free of cost”, the cost of refurbishing it has risen steadily to $2.3 billion. It remains unclear whether the new delay increases the cost further.

In giving India the Gorshkov “for free”, Moscow also got New Delhi to buy 16 MiG-29K/KUB fighters for $1 billion. In 2010, India paid another $1.2 billion for another 29 MiG-29K/KUB fighters.

But Serdyukov plays down the delay, claiming the Vikramaditya is “of the highest sophistication.” While admitting the engine failure was a setback, the Russian defence minister insisted that Russia would be “transferring an operable, perfect quality ship.” This, he said, would be ensured by extensive sea trials, in which over 11,000 nautical miles have already been covered in the White Sea and Baltic Sea.

Separately, in an interview to The Times of India, Russia’s deputy premier, Dmitry Rogozin, said, “Russia is the most consistent Indian partner and the Indian share in sensitive Russian military exports amounts to 30 per cent. In our military cooperation, we have never been driven by political ambitions or expediency. We have never supplied weapons to India’s opponents. From 2001 to 2010, contracts worth more than $30 billion were signed with over 20 inter-governmental agreements inked.”

Compounding the delay in the delivery of the aircraft carrier, the navy faces delays in inducting the INS Vikrant, the indigenous aircraft carrier being built by the Cochin Shipyard.

Originally slated to enter service in 2015, the indigenously built INS Vikrant will now be commissioned only in 2017 because of problems with its engines and gears, and an accident in which trucks that were transporting the ships generators from Pune to Kochi overturned en route, damaging the equipment.

Broadsword: Indian Navy

PS BD Popeye what's up with the cars on board the aircraft carriers ?

Originally Posted by Franklin

The Vikramaditya saga: If nothing else goes wrong then India will recieve the Vikramaditya in the fourth quarter of 2013.



Broadsword: Indian Navy

PS BD Popeye what's up with the cars on board the aircraft carriers ?

Look like China will get it is carrier before India after all, I think by this time next year J-15 flying off Liaoning should be regular procedure.

Originally Posted by TerraN_EmpirE

@Air Force Brat
So Take into account now a less well financially endowed country say Thailand for example. Now are they going too simply roll the Harriers off the deck of the HMTS Chakri Naruebet when F35's are ruling the Air? Thailand is not currently a member of the partner nations they have no commitment too the Lightning 2.

I have too correct my self A while back I made an Argument with AFB in which I used Thailand as an example of a nation who I thought operated Harriers I was wrong they do not have any. They failed too get an Export Agreement.
Although my argument still stands my example was erroneous.
That there are still nations who will continue too operate Harriers because they do not have and agreement on the F35B or C. Like Spain.