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About rockets hitting Haifa

This is a discussion on About rockets hitting Haifa within the World Armed Forces forums, part of the World Strategic Defence Area category; I have posted my quiry in another forum but not much replies.. so try my luck here I have been ...

  1. #1
    mobydog is offline Member
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    About rockets hitting Haifa

    I have posted my quiry in another forum but not much replies.. so try my luck here

    I have been puzzled about how Hez short ranged rockets been hitting Haifa regularly?

    The original Hez Katyusha rockets have a max range of only 12km (majority stock are of this variant) and was modified to extended to a range of 18 to 22km. With this modification the rockets are hardly hand-portable (approx 180kg) and have to be mounted on trucks, or required to be transported by trucks and launch from ad-hoc sites... making them quite visible from the air... but still small enough to be hidden in bushes.


    Katyusha rocket launched by Hezbollah

    The Fajr-3 has a Max range of 45km and are 40% longer and twice the diameter (240mm) of the extended Katyusha variant. each are 405 kg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-3_rocket


    Fajr-3 pic

    The Fajr-5 has a Max range of 75 km and are twice longer (approx. 10m) and 3 times the diameter (333mm) of the extended Katyusah variant... must have weigh a ton each
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-5

    Both Fajr-5 and Fajr-3 are long and are definately truck launched.



    Haifa is situated appox. 35km from the Lebanese border. The IDF have total air coverage in Lebanese South and total land control 5km< and air control 30km> inside lebanon. We know that IDF will bomb any trucks and cars in South Lebanon with impunity.. therefore , even if it was possible only afew Fajr-3 would get thru.. and IDF would have spotted those trucks from a far, given South Lebanon terrain.

    My question is - How the hell could those Katyusha Rockets even reach Haifa, which is more than 40 km from the buffer zone, with a max 22 km range ?



    As I say Fajr-3 are quite large with a 45kg warhead and 5.2m long weighing 405kg... and Fajr-5 wouldn't survive long enough to launch and it has a 90kg warhead. Both have high damage ratings which does not corresponds from pics and News media of damage sites in Haifa hit by rockets... there are in fact more like pot holes. While Israel northern town were hit (which is not a surprise) there are always Rocket debris.. like latest Kiryat town rocket attack hit by short range Katyusha rockets with approx. 50 pounds of explosives.. and the hole is much bigger and deeper.

    Rockets of these size are not easy to hide, and to think that Haifa has been hit with 100 rockets(at it's height) a day. How do you hide that many Fagr-3/5 from the air anyway.

    So, it has to be Katyusha rockets, which Hez manufacture and easy to hide and transport, but it just do not have the range.
    Monday, August 29, 2005

    Lebanese sources said Hizbullah tested the Fajr-3 rocket on Aug. 25. The sources said three Fajr-3s were launched about six kilometers north of the Israeli-Lebanese border.

    Hizbullah was said to have deployed up to 15,000 missiles and rockets in southern Lebanon. The lion's share of the weapons was said to consist of 107 mm Katyusha rockets, with a range of eight kilometers.

    The Fajr-3 was said to be more than five meters in length and with a weight of more than 400 kilograms. Hizbullah was also believed to possess the Fajr-5, a 330 mm rocket with a range of 70 kilometers.

    Lebanese sources said the Fajr-3s launched last week flew only six kilometers and fell three kilometers from each other. They said this could have marked a failure of the rocket launch.

    "Because of their bulk, the three [Fajr-3] rockets fired on Thursday would either have been driven to Wadi Salouqi and launched from the back of a specially adapted truck or fired from a permanent artillery position," defense analyst Nicholas Blanford wrote in the Daily Star. "Rogue Palestinians, or their hired hands, may be able to infiltrate the border zone and 'shoot and scoot' with a couple of 107 millimeter rockets from time to time, but launching Fajr-3s is out of their league."
    http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...lah_08_29.html

    Israel News Agency reported the same . ( but has been taken Down ).. wonder why ?http://www.israelnewsagency.com/iran...ar8730918.html

    And after less than a year of a fail test, the Fajr-3 work perfectly now... And able to manufacture and launch more than 500 of them in bushes at Haifa. :shock: There are 1800 rockets launched so far into Israel.

    Even this article struggle to give a credible analysis, without saying it's a Fajr-5 (taking account of the buffer zone).. but the damage inflicted on Haifa, does not even suggest a (Fajr-3)45kg warhead element, much less a 90kg warhead of a Fajr-5.. in most instances more like a mortar hit... and then there is question of rocket debris... which is glaringly absent.
    http://www.stratfor.com/products/pre...ected=Analyses

    Anyone could shed a light ??

  2. #2
    googeler is offline New Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    The IDF have total air coverage in Lebanese South and total land control 5km< and air control 30km> inside lebanon.
    There is no such thing as total air and land control - in any war, anyplace. The clear evidence that it is not the case here is that rockets are still hitting Israel.

    You have to consider 2 facts:
    - the terrain in the area: clean hilltops (with villages) and valleys full of thick brush, trees and with lots of natural cavities and caves
    -Hezbollah isn't moving much, they have lots of ammo and small teams hidden in the mentioned geographical features (where you can easily camouflage a Fajr-3/5 launcher and ammo. Remember that for launching their weapon of choice (122mm BM-21 Grad - wrongly called Katiusa in the West even if Katiusa isn't in service any more since the 50's-60's) they don't use a big Kamaz 6x6 truck with 40 tubes, but rather smaller instalations - usually 6 tubes on a fixed tripod or a jeep. That might also be the case with bigger rockets.

  3. #3
    mobydog is offline Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by googeler
    There is no such thing as total air and land control - in any war, anyplace. The clear evidence that it is not the case here is that rockets are still hitting Israel.

    You have to consider 2 facts:
    - the terrain in the area: clean hilltops (with villages) and valleys full of thick brush, trees and with lots of natural cavities and caves
    -Hezbollah isn't moving much, they have lots of ammo and small teams hidden in the mentioned geographical features (where you can easily camouflage a Fajr-3/5 launcher and ammo. Remember that for launching their weapon of choice (122mm BM-21 Grad - wrongly called Katiusa in the West even if Katiusa isn't in service any more since the 50's-60's) they don't use a big Kamaz 6x6 truck with 40 tubes, but rather smaller instalations - usually 6 tubes on a fixed tripod or a jeep. That might also be the case with bigger rockets.
    OK.. no total air cover.. fair enough

    What is your view of those rockets hitting Haifa ?? What Rockets are they ? Explain those small pot-hole where the rocket hit and where are the rocket the debris.

  4. #4
    googeler is offline New Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    You wrote in the first post:
    The original Hez Katyusha rockets have a max range of only 12km (majority stock are of this variant) and was modified to extended to a range of 18 to 22km
    Have you ever wondered how did they increase range, dimensions remaining the same? -> less payload (smaller warhead). It's the basic equation of any rocket.
    My speculation is that they sacrificed warhead strength (size) for range - maybe they also modified the bigger rockets (like the Grads) for longer ranges. After all the psychologycal effect is the same, even if the damage is less

  5. #5
    crazyinsane105's Avatar
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by googeler
    After all the psychologycal effect is the same, even if the damage is less
    Quite true. But they have also put ball bearings in the rocket warheads as to make up for the decreased warhead size.

  6. #6
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Well if they sacrificed warhead power in favor of increased range, that would explain the bizzarely low Israeli civilian casualties... I think it was like 200 rockets for each death or something?

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    DennisDaMenace is offline New Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    It looks like Hizbollah has several types of unguided rockets. From the dammage done so far it looks like they can dammage buildings and other standing objects but can not penetrate into bunkers and bombshelters. They have no penetration power (lower casualties). I have seen the caseing of some of these rockets on TV and they are diamond shaped grids that will break off on impact along with the ballbearings inside -sharpnel.
    Most of the big casualties on the Lebonise side has been when the IDF has hit bunkers or bomb shelters with penetrating munitions. I have to admit the IDF does not always choose its targets as well as I would like. This war seems to be more of a political battle then tactical or strategic. The more the Lebonese suffer, the bigger the victory for Hezbolla. Go figure?

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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydog
    ...Rockets of these size are not easy to hide, and to think that Haifa has been hit with 100 rockets(at it's height) a day. How do you hide that many Fagr-3/5 from the air anyway....
    Just cover the missiles with camouflaged nettings. During Gulf War I, the U.S. failed to find a single Scud-A missile/launcher in Iraq(and they tried very hard). Iraq launched all 79 Scuds without being detected. These missiles/launchers are much, much larger than any of Hezabollah rockets, and Iraq is a flat featureless desert.

  9. #9
    googeler is offline New Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    DennisDaMenace wrote:
    This war seems to be more of a political battle then tactical or strategic. The more the Lebonese suffer, the bigger the victory for Hezbolla.
    I couldn't have put it better myself. This particular campaign CANNOT be won the way it's been fought until now. The Israelis need to send in commandos to clear the strongpoints and prepared ambushes and to make way for the armour and regular troops. All this with close support from attack helos and perhaps planes. Degrading the Lebanese infrastructure and hitting urban areas with 2000 pound JDAMS will only increase the number of Hezbollah supporters and members.

    coolieno99 wrote:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mobydog
    ...Rockets of these size are not easy to hide, and to think that Haifa has been hit with 100 rockets(at it's height) a day. How do you hide that many Fagr-3/5 from the air anyway....

    Just cover the missiles with camouflaged nettings. During Gulf War I, the U.S. failed to find a single Scud-A missile/launcher in Iraq(and they tried very hard). Iraq launched all 79 Scuds without being detected. These missiles/launchers are much, much larger than any of Hezabollah rockets, and Iraq is a flat featureless desert.
    Also it is worth mentioning that today there are certain tarpaulines which can render a vehicle almost invisible to thermal sensors. A classic camouflage netting (closely resembling the surounding landscape) on top of that and it is also hard to spot visually. And if all that is in a valley even a JSTARS couldn't find it.

  10. #10
    mobydog is offline Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by googeler
    You wrote in the first post:


    Have you ever wondered how did they increase range, dimensions remaining the same? -> less payload (smaller warhead). It's the basic equation of any rocket.
    My speculation is that they sacrificed warhead strength (size) for range - maybe they also modified the bigger rockets (like the Grads) for longer ranges. After all the psychologycal effect is the same, even if the damage is less
    Sure say it and it will happen.. easy..

    but still the range is about 22km, but Haifa is 35km away.

  11. #11
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydog
    Sure say it and it will happen.. easy..

    but still the range is about 22km, but Haifa is 35km away.
    Like you said they have longer range rockets (Fajr-3 /5) and Haifa is well within the range of these missiles… Destroying all Hezbollah missile stocks is virtually impossible… That would mean that you will find every rocket stockpile and every missile launcher in southern Lebanon…
    "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

  12. #12
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    Quote Originally Posted by googeler
    ... Degrading the Lebanese infrastructure and hitting urban areas with 2000 pound JDAMS will only increase the number of Hezbollah supporters and members...
    Totally agreed. Sometimes airstrikes on civilian/urban areas results in counterproductive political outcome.
    Before Israeli airstrikes, only 40% of Lebaneses support Hezbollah.
    After Israeli airstrikes, Lebanese support of Hezbollah has risen to over 80%.

  13. #13
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    from my point of view,these rockets attack on israel have psychologically affect israelis.israelis is afraid to go out of their house n bussines is not going well too,so it will affect israel's economy.
    well it's quite useless 4 israel to have anti rocket/missilles laser defence although it maybe succesfully shot down several rocket when hundreds of such rocket launched by hezbollah.

  14. #14
    PakTopGun is offline New Member
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    to be quite honest, im actually quite surprised how organized and potent this hizbollah militia group has performed in the face of a professional standing army with its billions and billions of dollars of US equipment, tanks, aircraft etc..(i.e. IDF). the fact that they are able to launch these rockets while Israeli troops are also in the country is even more baffling! As these are mere rockets and not large missiles as such, they can, i pressume be lauched from atop buildings, or any small platform which would almost be impossible to detect. Also, im sure there is mass appeal for the said militia because they appear to have excellent logistics and networks throughout the country irrespective of religious/ethnic background. Also, how did the missiles get to lebanon from Iran? does anybody know? if they were passed through Syria(as many have speculated) did they go by the land route via Iraq? or by sea?

  15. #15
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    bd popeye is offline The Last Jedi
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    Re: About rockets hitting Haifa

    PakTopGun sez..
    Also, how did the missiles get to lebanon from Iran? does anybody know? if they were passed through Syria(as many have speculated) did they go by the land route via Iraq? or by sea?
    Personally I think many of the rockets were sent to Hezzbolah by sea over the last 5 years or so. They could have been shipped by sea without the knowledge of the shipping enities envolved. Most of course arrived in Beruit. Then were probaly shipped to Hezzbolah strongholds in S. Lebanon by truck.
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