Pla Marines

I honestly don't know that much about the Chinese Marines. This is basically what I know at present:

1. Though they have a long-on-off history, the present PLAN Marine force has only really been around since the late 1970s'/early 1980's.

2. There are at present two PLAN Marine Brigades with amphibious tanks and a high proportion of motorized infantry.

3. They have been experiencing lately an increasing budget and modest expansion/modernization.

4. The PLA already has 2 divisions (and is adding at least 1 more) trained in amphibious warfare.

5. I am under the impression that PLAN Marines may receive about 3 month's combined recruit and infantry training (I may be wrong about this) - contrasted to the USMC's 4.5/5 months combined recruit and infantry training.

I presume that you know more than me about the PLAN Marines; if you could share a little of what you know with the rest of us, we may be better able to share with you what we know about the USMC and together arrive at a much better understanding of how they compare to each other.

Unit 88:

Here are a few things that I know about the USMC -compare them to what you know about the PLAN Marines:

1. Physical Fitness - USMC like a 3 mile run in 24.5 minutes, 60 push-ups, 85 sit-ups, 18 pull-ups, 41 squat-thrusts, and a 300 metre sprint in 41 seconds in either 5 60 metre dashes or 6 50 metre dashes (I've forgotten which, but its to simulate the actions in the Rifle Squad assault), and a 9 mile forced much with full kit in (I think) 3 hours, including across obstacles and at the end of a 54 hour "Sickener-type" exercise.

2. The USMC organizes itself into Marine Expeditionary Forces composed of at least one Marine Division (an MEF HQ can act in much the same way as an Army Corps HQ) and at least one Marine Air Wing (many, many squadrons and other units of fighter-bombers, attack aircraft, forward air control (FAC) aircraft, attack, assault, and transport helicopters, etc.) An MEF can organize Expeditionary Brigades (based on a Marine Infantry Regiment and part of a Marine Air Wing) and Expeditionary Units (based on a Marine Infantry Battalion and supporting Marine Air Wing Units), and possess heavy armour, tracked amphibious APCs and wheeled APCs, medium artillery, light and heavy anti-aircraft units, engineers, lots of reconnaissance troops, etc.

3. The USMC have a long and distinguished history in which their Regimental structure (not exactly the same as the British) helps to retain past lessons learned (unlike US Army and others in which Regiments are here today and gone tomorrow and their members scattered about). Marines often get to serve together for longer periods of time in the same unit, so they not only do not have to keep re-learning the basics, but they can go on to more advanced training and build up both experience and especially the sorts of personal relationships based upon professional trust and competence that make truly professional armies experts in war (and often good friends, or at least good comrades, in peace).

4. The USMC are well-trained by most standards. A US Marine infantryman receives around 20-21 weeks of recruit and infantry training, to fairly high standards of skill and physical fitness, and all must qualify as marksmen by successfully scoring on targets up to 400 metree with the M-16 A2 - something very few armies attempt anymore, if they ever did. Their battlecraft is superior to that of many armies (fieldcraft is sometimes another matter). USMC senior NCO's receive 5 weeks' hard squad and platoon leader's training in order to earn the right to lead Marines (and typically lose 30 or so pounds doing so on their NCO course), and new US Marine Infantry officers receive a full years' training, in addition to their academic development.

5. Their 13 man Rifle Squad is the envy of much of the Infantry world. Composed of a Squad Leader (senior NCO) commanding 3 identical 4 man Fire Teams (each with a light machine gun, grenade launcher, and 3 assault rifels and led by a junior NCO), it is very capable. By the way, Fire Teams were pioineered by the USMC, and allow Rifle Squads/Sections to use fire-and-movement with (potentially) tight control. It has the numbers to take heavy losses and make assaults, heavy firepower to force the enemy to go to ground and stay there, good officers and often excellent (and plentiful) NCOs to led often well-trained and disciplined Marines. And this continues upwards.

Compare what you know of the PLAN Marines to this.

The PLAN marine corps is like the U.S. marine corps in training and operation concepts. Training-wise, it's probably based off of former Soviet-examples, but I'm not sure, though it can't be too much different from what the United States demands of its soldiers. At least the "Frogman Squad" is "comparable to the U.S. Navy SEAL in terms of tactics and doctrines" according to SinoDefence. Here's some more information:

http://www.sinodefence.com/organisat...arinecorps.asp

A 5km (3 mile) run with 25 kg (55 lbs) of kit in 20 minutes, and in their first year of training? Wow, even USMC Force Recon (or whatever their calling themselves now) only required a 2 mile run in under 12 minutes with rifle, helmet, and webbing (and 20% higher scores in standard USMC physical fitness tests).

Still, the SinoDefence.com site doesn't have any specific information on minor unit organization, tactics, and leadership. That would have been nice, especially considering that's necessarily the PLAN Marines' bread and butter.

but from what I heard, all PLA Marine were not recruited from civilian, but from the PLA infantry. only the best in PLA infantry can be tested and become a PLA Marine, since the Marine in PLA is really small, they can be really picky about chosing the right men.

Personally I never served in the USMC but I have at least 3 friends that is in the MC. they first go though a 3 month basic. from what I heard the 3 month compared to the PLAMC training is easier, just about 3 mails every day, couple hundred pushup a day, M-16 training (no pistol or M-14, SAW) just M-16 only for weapon's training. basic martial art. 10 miles or so 70lb hiking, and that is the basic...
then they will go into the combat training in san deigo which is more tactnical.

From the rumors I heard from a friend that served in the PLA that some of the training the Marine have, 50 pushup under 1 min 10 times a day, 20 k run, 100 pull up, droped off by a ship and have to swim back to a island that is about 5 k away, very hard martial art traning, island surival. hold breath at least for 3 min. stuff like that,,,,

Here is a personal story I have seen. This happened one time when I was visiting a Buddhist temple in China. The temple was on top of a mountain and you have to walk there to the top by what seemed to be a very long stairway snaking up the mountain consisting of hundreds of steps. I believe the number of steps to be around a thousand, whose number had a Buddhist symbolism on it. The temple is probably about at least 300 to 400 feet up high from sea level.

Now imagine two 5 gallon plastic pail buckets, the kind you get for 5 gallon paint. Fill that with rice completely. Now hang both buckets on both ends of a wooden pole each and put that pole over your shoulders. With that on your shoulders, run up a thousand step walkway up the mountain.

And this is exactly what I saw this person did. This person did it nonstop, while I panted and dragged my feet, and she was old enough to be your grandmother. And she probably does this routinely bringing the rice to the monks in the temple upstairs. And not just that, she's not alone, as there are other old people bringing heavy stuff up the mountain and back, one of them was actually a cement bag and the sand to mix it with.

So when I think of strength and endurance, I cannot think of any soldier anymore. I think of this old woman with two pails of rice hanging on a bar across her shoulders as she walked up the mountain, nonstop, no complaints, all seemingly so easy as she must have done this all through her life. She isn't bulging with muscles, and she's rather short, but whatever she had must be of the toughest pure sinew.

I don't know if the PLA Marines or the PLA soldiers are as tough as this old lady. I do think, that from their cultural and social environment, they must have very tough standards for endurance. The old veterans in Mao's days must be pretty tough to endure that Long March, but I don't know if today's China's city boys are going to be as tough as either their forefathers or their brethren in the countryside.

Originally Posted by Norfolk

A 5km (3 mile) run with 25 kg (55 lbs) of kit in 20 minutes, and in their first year of training? Wow, even USMC Force Recon (or whatever their calling themselves now) only required a 2 mile run in under 12 minutes with rifle, helmet, and webbing (and 20% higher scores in standard USMC physical fitness tests).

==The Chinese marine is different to the us in the sense that it is pretty much a commando force, much like the Russian marines, it serves as a connection between the army and the navy rather than an independent strike force. the Chinese equivalent to the US marine are the marine corps, and, army amphibious divisions,

Originally Posted by crobato

Here is a personal story I have seen. This happened one time when I was visiting a Buddhist temple in China. The temple was on top of a mountain and you have to walk there to the top by what seemed to be a very long stairway snaking up the mountain consisting of hundreds of steps. I believe the number of steps to be around a thousand, whose number had a Buddhist symbolism on it. The temple is probably about at least 300 to 400 feet up high from sea level.

Now imagine two 5 gallon plastic pail buckets, the kind you get for 5 gallon paint. Fill that with rice completely. Now hang both buckets on both ends of a wooden pole each and put that pole over your shoulders. With that on your shoulders, run up a thousand step walkway up the mountain.

And this is exactly what I saw this person did. This person did it nonstop, while I panted and dragged my feet, and she was old enough to be your grandmother. And she probably does this routinely bringing the rice to the monks in the temple upstairs. And not just that, she's not alone, as there are other old people bringing heavy stuff up the mountain and back, one of them was actually a cement bag and the sand to mix it with.

So when I think of strength and endurance, I cannot think of any soldier anymore. I think of this old woman with two pails of rice hanging on a bar across her shoulders as she walked up the mountain, nonstop, no complaints, all seemingly so easy as she must have done this all through her life. She isn't bulging with muscles, and she's rather short, but whatever she had must be of the toughest pure sinew.

I don't know if the PLA Marines or the PLA soldiers are as tough as this old lady. I do think, that from their cultural and social environment, they must have very tough standards for endurance. The old veterans in Mao's days must be pretty tough to endure that Long March, but I don't know if today's China's city boys are going to be as tough as either their forefathers or their brethren in the countryside.

LOL, yea i see what you mean. when i traveled to China to visit the great wall, there were old men and ladies just going on a daily "walk" on the great wall for miles and they didint break a sweat. meanwhile, the younger teens in china were all drinking water and panting etc..

Originally Posted by Norfolk

4. The USMC are well-trained by most standards. A US Marine receives around 18-20 weeks of recruit and infantry training, to fairly high standards of skill and physical fitness, and all must qualify as marksmen by successfully

I recall reading that the Royal Marines (UK) receives 32 weeks of basic training, and the Dutch Royal Marines receive 48 weeks of basic training? Can anyone verify these numbers?

Originally Posted by adeptitus

I recall reading that the Royal Marines (UK) receives 32 weeks of basic training, and the Dutch Royal Marines receive 48 weeks of basic training? Can anyone verify these numbers?

I don't know about the Dutch Marines, but the RM Commando training course does last 32 weeks and it is suppopsedly the longest training course of any infantry regiment in the World. Here's an extract from Wikipedia's article on the Royal Marines.

"Training
Royal Marines undergo the longest basic training regimen of any Infantry force in the world (32 weeks), at the Commando Training Centre Royal Marines (CTCRM) at Lympstone, Devon. The Royal Marines is the only part of the British Armed Forces where Officers and Other Ranks are trained at the same location. Much of the basic training is carried out on the rugged terrain of Dartmoor and Woodbury common with a significant proportion taking place at night. Before beginning Royal Marines recruit training the potential recruit must attend a Potential Royal Marine Course (PRMC) held at CTCRM. PRMC lasts 3 days and assesses physical ability and intellectual capacity to undertake the recruit training. Officer candidates must also undertake the Admiralty Interview Board.

Officers and Marines undergo the same training up to the commando tests, thereafter Marines go on to employment in a rifle company while Officers continue training. Officer courses are required to meet higher standards in the Commando tests.


Basic training
The first weeks of training are spent learning basic skills that will be used later. This includes much time spent on the parade ground and on the rifle ranges. Physical training at this stage emphasizes all-round body strength, in order to develop the muscles necessary to carry the heavy weights a marine will use in an operational unit. Key milestones include a gym passout at week 9 (not carried out with fighting order), which shows that a recruit is ready for the Bottom Field, a battle swimming test, and learning to do a "regain" (i.e. climb back onto a rope suspended over a water tank). Most of these tests are completed with the ever present "fighting order" of 32 lb (14.5 kg) of equipment. Individual fieldcraft skills are also taught at this basic stage.


The Commando Course
The culmination of training is a period known as the Commando Course. Following the Royal Marines taking on responsibility for the Commando Role with the disbandment of the Army Commandos at the end of World War II, all Royal Marines, except those in the Royal Marines Band Service, complete the Commando course as part of their training (see below). Key aspects of the course include climbing and ropework techniques, patrolling, and amphibious operations.

This intense phase ends with a series of tests which have remained virtually unchanged since World War II. Again, these tests are done with a "fighting order" of 32 lb (14.5kg) of equipment.

The commando tests are taken on consecutive days; they include;

A nine-mile (14.5 km) speed march, carrying full fighting order, to be completed in 90 minutes; the pace is thus 10 minutes per mile (6 min/km or 6 mph).
The Endurance course is a six mile, (9.65 km), course across rough terrain at Woodbury Common near Lympstone, which includes tunnels, pipes, wading pools, and an underwater culvert. The course ends with a four-mile run back to CTCRM. Followed by a marksmanship test, where the recruit must hit 6 out of 10 shots at a target representing a fig. 11 target at 200 m. To be completed in 73 minutes (71 minutes for Royal Marine officers), these times were recently increased by one minute as the route of the course was altered. The Course ends at the 25m range where the recruit must then put at least 6 out of 10 shots on target without cleaning their weapon.
The Tarzan Assault Course. This is an assault course combined with an aerial confidence test. It starts with a death slide and ends with a rope climb up a thirty foot vertical wall. It must be completed with full fighting order in 13 minutes, 12 minutes for Royal Marine officers. The Potential Officers Course also includes confidence tests from the Tarzan Assault Course, although not with equipment.
The Thirty miler. This is a 30 mile (48 km) march across Dartmoor, wearing fighting order, and additional safety equipment. It must be completed in 8 hours for recruits and 7 hours for Royal Marine officers, who must also navigate the route themselves, rather than following a DS with the rest of a syndicate and carry their own equipment.
The day after the 30 mile (48 km) march, any who failed any of the tests may attempt to retake them.

Completing the Commando Course successfully entitles the recruit or officer to wear the coveted green beret but does not mean that the Royal Marine has finished his training. That decision will be made by the troop or batch training team and will depend on the recruit's or young officer's overall performance. Furthermore, officer training still consists of many more months.

Training to be a Royal Marine takes 32 weeks. The last week is mainly administration and preparing for the pass out parade. Recruits in their final week of training are known as the King's Squad.

After basic and commando training, a Royal Marine Commando will normally join a unit of 3 Commando Brigade. There are three Royal Marines Commando infantry units in the Brigade: 40 Commando located at Norton Manor Camp near Taunton in Somerset, 42 Commando at Bickleigh Barracks, near Plymouth, Devon, and 45 Commando at HMS Condor, Arbroath on the east coast of Scotland.

Non Royal Marine volunteers for Commando training undertake the All Arms Commando Course

There is also a Reserve Commando Course run for members of the Royal Marines Reserve and Commando units of the Territorial Army.
Specialist training
Royal Marines may then go on to undertake specialist training in a variety of skills; Platoon Weapons Instructor, Mortar operator, signals, clerks, sniper, PT instructor, Mountain Leader, Swimmer Canoeist, chef, Landing Craft coxswain etc.

Training for these specialisations may be undertaken at CTCRM or in a joint environment, such as the Defence School of Transport at Leconfield or the Defence Police College.

Some marines are trained in military parachuting to allow flexibility of insertion methods for all force elements. Marines complete this training at RAF Brize Norton but are not required to undergo Pre Parachute Selection Course (P-Company) training with the Parachute Regiment."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_m...Basic_training

Originally Posted by adeptitus

I recall reading that the Royal Marines (UK) receives 32 weeks of basic training, and the Dutch Royal Marines receive 48 weeks of basic training? Can anyone verify these numbers?

adeptitus and Neutral Zone are quite right about the 32 weeks that the Royal Marines receive, and only the last 5 weeks of that is their actual Commando Course. I have no idea what the Royal Dutch Marines receive.

In comparison, the regular infantry in most English-speaking armies receive nearly the same amount of training, and to nearly the same high standards of the Royal Marines - infantry in the Australian, British, Canadian, and New Zealand armies all receive 25-28 weeks combined recruit and basic infantry training - but most do not go on to do a commando course, which virtually all Royal Marines do. Infantry in the Canadian Army train for 27 weeks to become a regular rifleman, and must perform, amongst of things, a 10 mile forced- march with full kit in 2 hours (preferably 1 hour 45 minutes). Canadian infantry NCO's receive up to a combined 14 weeks' Junior and Senior Command Course training. Similar, though not identical standards are enforced in the other Commonwealth armies.

By contrast, both the US Army and the US Marine Corps' infantry receive much less training, and to generally lower standards: US Army infantry receive 13-14 weeks recruit and infantry training (which also includes their specialists training, something that the Commonwealth armies add separately) and must pass a 12 mile forced march with 65lbs of kit within 3 hours, and US Army infantry NCOs may receive as little as 2 weeks' Combat Leadership Course training; USMC infantry receive 20-21 weeks recruit and infantry training (which also includes their specialist training) and must pass a 9 or 10 mile forced march with kit over obstacles in (I think) 3 hours. USMC infantry NCOs receive 5 weeks' combined Squad and Platoon Leaders' training.

Of course both the US Army and US Marine Corps are huge organizations in contrast to other English-speaking armies, and their regular infantry are neither intended nor expected (although there are some exceptions to this with USMC) to handle the broad range of missions that Commonwealth armies are, and do.

From what King_Comm and petty officer1 are saying, the PLAN Marines are really closer to the Royal Marines than the USMC, and any comparisons between the USMC and the PLAN Marines should be made with this in mind, in that they're quite different troops and fight in different roles. Regular US Marine infantry are just that, regular infantry (except for those battalions that receive SOC training prior to their deployments), and PLAN Marines are full-fledged commando forces, like the Royal Marines.

Check out "PRC Improvement topic" thread on Professional Discussions Forum. I'm almost tempted to ask a mod to merge these two threads. There's a lot about the PLAN Marines there.

Alright, here's some sources of info on the PLAN Marines:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_procee.../CF182.ch8.pdf

This has a little useful info, but not a lot.

http://www.fas.org/irplagenvy/oni/chinanavy2007.pdf

This is from "China's Navy 2007" published by the Office of Naval Intelligence, and it has a lot of good stuff. Almost of this post is drawn (practically verbatim) from this info.

Basically, ONI says that PLAN Marine Corps Junior Officers are either drawn from one of two sources: 1. the PLAN Naval Vessel Academy at Guangzhou (Canton), spending 3 to 4years there, or 2. recruited from civilian universities (the majority for technical occupations), receiving 3 months's basic officer training before assignment to a junior command position (where they receive 1 to 3 years' on the job training) for non-technical occupations, or spend first 2 years in civilian college then finish remaining 2 years (and degree) at a PLA Academy (National Defense Scholarship Program - similar to US ROTC). Until 1999, however, those junior officers recruited from civilian colleges received one year's basic officer training before assignment to junior command positions, and this has led to complaints within PLAN. PLA Academies are of three types: Basic - Train Platoon Level Commanders, Intermediate - Train Regimental Level Commanders, Advanced - Train Group Army (Corps) Level commanders. PLA Academies offer Bachelour's, Masters' (since 1980's), and Doctor's (since 1990's) degrees.

ONI says that PLAN Marine Corps Non-Commissioned Officers (NCOs) have only formally existed since 1999 when the NCO Corps was established in the PLAN. They are selected from enlisted men who have completed their first 2 years' service. Those who fail NCO selction are demobilized. Those selected attend 1-3 months NCO training (presumably depending on occupation) at an NCO Academy or a training unit. For those who aspire to be NCOs, it is up-or-out.

As enlisted men in their first 2 years' of service no longer receive technical training (since 1999 when the enlisted term of service in PLAN was reduced from 4 years to 2), junior NCOs now perform most technical tasks. To do so, NCOs may attend PLA Academies (but segregated from officers) or colleges to receive technical degrees, or 2-3 years technical training at an NCO Academy, or they may simply complete high school (unaffordable to many Chinese).

NCOs are organized into six separate grades, with two grades each to Junior, Intermediate, and Senior NCO levels. Time in grade for Junior NCOs is 3 years in the 1st Period, 4 Years in 2nd Period; for Intermediate NCOs it is 4 years each in both 3rd and 4th Periods; for Senior NCOs it is 5 years in the 5th Period and 9 years in the final 6th Period. Potentially NCOs may remain for 30 years in the PLAN.

Both the PLAN Officer and the NCO Corps are suffering from shortages of educated and skilled personnel. It appears most educated and skilled Chinese (who live in cities) are intent on seeking the better economic opportunites available to them in civilian life. By contrast, the core of the enlisted force continues to be made up of poor rural dwellers who can't afford high school fees, and view the PLA in general as the only way to escape rural poverty. And, as the NCO Corps is drawn from the enlisted force, this contributes to an NCO shortage in general and a shortage of Senior NCO's in particular, as both the youth of the NCO Corps and the shortage of high school graduates limits enlistees' suitability for NCO selection.

Enlisted men are inducted in November of each year and serve for 2 years until they can be considered for either Officer or NCO selection, and receive 2 months basic training followed by 1 month's seamanship training. He is then posted to his unit, where he receives on the job individual and unit training. By the time an enlisted man has been in the PLAN for 6 months, he is considered ready for unit training. Until 1999, enlisted recruits received 3 months basic training as the term of service was 4 years for PLAN (including PLAN Marine Corps), not the 2 years since.

The PLAN Marine Corps operates on a 1-Year Training cycle, with most training performed during the summer and fall, with a slowdown from November to February are dedicated to basic and individual training of new recruits prior to the training of the unit as a whole. Junior officers and NCOs at this time are temporarily detached from operational units to provide 2 month's basic training for recruits and NCO training (1-3 months) for enlisted men who have completed their first 2 years' service and been selected to replace outgoing NCO's. The Marines conduct Regimental Scale maneouvres for 3 days and 3 nights at a time and Brigade Scale maneouvres for 5 day and 5 nights at a time. Twice a year, in early June and late November, comprehensive training evaluations are conducted.

There are problems in Combined-Arms Training that have led the PLAN to attach officers from one branch to another for 6 months of practical experience.

In short, whatever the physical fitness and hand-to-hand combat abilities of the PLAN Marines, their professional standards may still be somewhat shaky, and not necessarily comparable to their Western counterparts.

The article hits it right in the head. The PLA in general has to raise salaries to attract the educated city folk. Much of their double digit budget raise is eaten up by salary increases, and I remember last year, one PLA general complained it ain't enough. The problem is raised because the income and living standards for the city folk are also rising.

By the high school in China is government provided.