Disgusting, AVIC I plans to take shortcut again on big Plane Project

antimatter, This is an English language Chinese military forum. Please translate that article into English and repost.

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中美又要合造大飞机了 (2008-09-05 13:15:34)


9月5日消息：记者昨日从中国商用飞机有限责任公司了解到，大飞机项目已正式开始启动国际合作的 进程。9月 3日，大飞机公司副总经理吴光辉会见了美国发动机巨头普惠中国公司的代表并进行了会谈。
　　“下一步的合作肯定是会有的，但目前是以资金、还是技术合作都没有确定，不方便透露。”大 飞机公司人士 向本报记者表示。此前，大飞机公司始终表示不排除与国际合作的可能性。记者了解到，在9月3日 的会谈中，中 方向美国普惠介绍了中国商飞公司的概况和大型客机项目的进展情况。美国普惠中国公司总裁中野茂 秋则介绍了普 惠公司正在研制的新一代PW1000G发动机，双方还就下一步的合作安排进行了全面讨论。此前 ，市场普遍认 为项目的核心之一发动机或将采取外购的方式，而此次大飞机公司与世界航空发动机主要生产商美国 普惠的合作， 似已露出了端倪。

Let me try to translate this, however, the author did not post the source of this article.

China and USA cooperate to make big plane again (2008-09-05 13:15:34)

Sep 5th, Reporter got the news from Chinese Bussiness Airplane Company Limited, the big airplane project has ignited international cooperation procedure. Sep 3rd, the deputy general manager of big plane company, Mr. Wu Guang Hui, met and talk to USA aircraft engine manufacturing giant, Pratt and Whitney China.

"The next step cooperation is for sure, but to cooperate by fund or technique is not sure yet, so it's not convenient to disclose". The big plane company's staff told reporter, previously, the big plane company did not eliminate the possibility of international cooperation. Reporter knew that in the meeting on Sep 3rd, the Chinese side introduced to American P&W about the general situation of Chinese Bussiness Airplane and the progress of the large airliner project. The chairman of P&W China, Mr. 中野茂秋 (his name), introduced that it is devloping a new generation engine: PW1000G. Both sides also talk about the next step cooperation arrangement. Previously, the market generally thinks that one of the cores of the project, the engine, might adopt importing method. And this time, the cooperation between the big plane company and the world's main engine manufacturer seems disclose some clue about this.

Western engines have proven themselves to have superior fuel burn, lifespan, and reliability. Support for Western engines is also stellar with supply and maintenance centres throughout the world. This is essential if AVIC I wishes to attract customers...

who care if western engine are better at this stage.
Just like saying Intel processor is better China shouldn't make its own longeson processor.

If AVIC I indeed is going use foreign engine and just build the body, then it's a great sham abnd cop out.

All the recent talk of building a domestic large plane is a farce.

Originally Posted by antimatter

who care if western engine are better at this stage.
Just like saying Intel processor is better China shouldn't make its own longeson processor.

If AVIC I indeed is going use foreign engine and just build the body, then it's a great sham abnd cop out.

All the recent talk of building a domestic large plane is a farce.

there is a huge difference between the engine to be used for the domestic airliner and domestic transport. The former is going to use Western engine, because Chinese ones simply aren't going to get FAA approvals. The latter is going to use Chinese engine, because US will not let American engines to be used on Chinese warplanes.

It's that simple. Please don't freak out over something so basic.

An interesting question: since China has reverse engineer so many stuff in the past, can't it reverse engineer an American engine and make its own version?

Originally Posted by tphuang

. The former is going to use Western engine, because Chinese ones simply aren't going to get FAA approvals.

FAA? Only if plane is flying out of the country.
If they have to use western engine, the only salvation from that would be able to license produce those engine,and fly control system. otherwise if the blackbox approach, then AVIC I will learn absolute nothing about the core technology.

Such a letdown from initial drumming up of doing something great on their own , only to find out all they doing is to build the skin.

There's really no point in complaining until you actually build your own large turbofan. And obviously China doesn't have one yet.

Does anybody know if it's possible to build a "civilian" version of a military transport turbofan? Maybe detune it or leave out some sensitive technology. Would that be necessary? How complicated a task would that be?

Originally Posted by antimatter

FAA? Only if plane is flying out of the country.
If they have to use western engine, the only salvation from that would be able to license produce those engine,and fly control system. otherwise if the blackbox approach, then AVIC I will learn absolute nothing about the core technology.

Such a letdown from initial drumming up of doing something great on their own , only to find out all they doing is to build the skin.

The commercial jet is built for domestic and international market, so yes FAA approval is essential for this plane.
And Chinese aviation industry on all levels always takes one step at a time; building this plane and putting it together is the first step. You shouldnt expect everything to be included in this 1st step...

Originally Posted by SteelBird

An interesting question: since China has reverse engineer so many stuff in the past, can't it reverse engineer an American engine and make its own version?

The PW PurePower 1000G is a totally new engine design and concept. It's a geared turbofan engine and there are big risks with designing such a engine. PW is still not complete with their work on the design, and it can be said that if the technology pans out, it would be revolutionary in terms of engine design.

Nothing wrong with Western engines if it's commercial plane, more economical.

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

If no license production at the minimum, then no deal!

FAA? Only if plane is flying out of the country.
If they have to use western engine, the only salvation from that would be able to license produce those engine,and fly control system. otherwise if the blackbox approach, then AVIC I will learn absolute nothing about the core technology.

Such a letdown from initial drumming up of doing something great on their own , only to find out all they doing is to build the skin.

How is it not going to fly out of the country? The Chinese carriers are not that backward. And I'm pretty sure they are aiming to sell it worldwide.

Add to that, all these suppliers have existing sales team and support staff already set up worldwide. So, that's going to make it even easier for AVIC1 to manage the aftersale stuff. As for license produce, they are already doing that for CF-34A. Depending on how advanced the engine is, they might be able to license produce CFM-56 in the future. A lot of it is dependent on their own large bypass engine. If it only reaches D-30KP3 level, then it's not going to give China much level. But if it's better than PS-90A and reaches the reliability, efficiency of CFM-56-7 series. Then, we have a different story.

Originally Posted by Pointblank

The PW PurePower 1000G is a totally new engine design and concept. It's a geared turbofan engine and there are big risks with designing such a engine. PW is still not complete with their work on the design, and it can be said that if the technology pans out, it would be revolutionary in terms of engine design.

well, even aside for GTF, which is supposedly going to lead an entire new generation of commercial engine, most turbofan engines are simply too difficult to copy. China doesn't have the blueprint, it doesn't have the tools needed to take apart and put the engine back together. Look at how long it took them to figure out su-27 and they actually got ToT for that.

Originally Posted by FriedRiceNSpice

Its not like building an engine is all that matters for designing a plane... by building the airframe AVIC 1 will gain a great deal of experience too.

It is better for China to obtain a new revolutionary engine design then start out from scratch, since now the first Chinese engine to be designed will also incorporate that revolutionary design. Otherwise it could take the Chinese 10-20 years to catch up.

yeah, hopefully, I'm not holding breathe though.