Chinese military exports to other countries

That article is quite typical of Western views on anything coming from China - based largely off of the clearly biased opinions of so call 'experts' but completely lacking any details or facts and everything they say is dated because they are unable to verify any of the ongoing developments or future plans.

The JF17 is by no means 'obsolete'. Going by that lofty standard, the vast majority of the likes of the USAF and NATO air forces are obsolete. The JF17 isn't flashy or cutting edge, but it is in the same league as the bulk of the fighters flying in the top air forces in the world right now.

The only decent point they made was in stressing that the fighters that China would allow to be exported are not good enough to secure big high profile orders. Considering that everyone else is offering their latest toys, and quite often for everyone else who isn't America, they are offering fighters superior to what their own forces are using, is it any surprise that the Chinese are struggling when they keep their newest toys strictly off limits?

If China really cut loose and put the likes of the J10B, J11B, J20 and F60 up for sale, it would be a completely different picture and big sales would come.


We also need to remember just how new the JF17 is. It is still only just entering service and still building up to its full potential as weapons integration is still ongoing as are newer blk designs with added features and hopefully a Chinese engine.

Part of the reason people are not buying it is because no one really want a work in progress. Hearing promises that such and such will be integrated or added to a later blk simply does not carry anywhere like the same weight as a list of features already installed and weapons integrated.

I think even the JF17 will become a far more competative offering once it has had time to mature. But I think the main reason China's international sales have been so poor is because of a lack of competition between Chinese firms.

SAC has been effective barred from the international market, first by the PLAAF's refusal to release a decent J8II version for export, and then by contractual obligations with the J11. For all the IP infringement whining the Russians have made, SAC has actually been quite good as they have not even offered the J11 for export even though there are a number of countries that would be very interested.

CAC has pretty much had the Chinese fighter export market cornered up till now. If you wanted full blooded fighters, CAC was the only Chinese vendor.

As good as CAC is, I think that kinda still affected them as they released what they felt like. They went at a good pace, but did not really push themselves like they did for the internal PLAAF contracts.

CAC did an amazing job on the JF17, but I think it could have been an even better aircraft had there been a rival offering from SAC.

That is part of the reason why the F60 is so interesting. Not only does it represent the first top of the line Chinese fighter that will be made available for export, it is a SAC fighter. This should help to push CAC into bringing their A game to the fighter export arena.

When was the chart published? It's not accurate. At least we know that Venezuela has some K-8 but the chart shows none.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

When was the chart published? It's not accurate. At least we know that Venezuela has some K-8 but the chart shows none.

it missed a lot of stuff. Egypt imported 120 K-8s which is not shown in there. Don't expect too much out of these guys.

Originally Posted by plawolf

If China really cut loose and put the likes of the J10B, J11B, J20 and F60 up for sale, it would be a completely different picture and big sales would come.

I doubt. Countries that have money to buy fighter aircraft are typically in the Western camp, and they will not be allowed to buy Chinese aircraft. Most countries that do want to buy Chinese aircraft are so dirt poor that even the JF-17 is too expensive. For this same reason, I don't see the export potential of F-60 unless the plane is stripped of avionics.

Originally Posted by Engineer

I doubt. Countries that have money to buy fighter aircraft are typically in the Western camp, and they will not be allowed to buy Chinese aircraft. Most countries that do want to buy Chinese aircraft are so dirt poor that even the JF-17 is too expensive. For this same reason, I don't see the export potential of F-60 unless the plane is stripped of avionics.

Yeah, the west dominate the modern fighter market. So who's left rich enough to buy Chinese modern fighters? I try to count; maybe Malaysia; however, she chose Su-30MKM over JF-17. Indonesia? I think she also operate Su-30, right? So who else can you count? Perhaps Venezuela is the last rich customer to buy Chinese modern fighters.

P.S. China may export anything but not J-11 considered its license problems.

Originally Posted by Engineer

I doubt. Countries that have money to buy fighter aircraft are typically in the Western camp, and they will not be allowed to buy Chinese aircraft. Most countries that do want to buy Chinese aircraft are so dirt poor that even the JF-17 is too expensive. For this same reason, I don't see the export potential of F-60 unless the plane is stripped of avionics.

Good point, as in this day and age, it is a rare thing for a fighter deal to be decided only based on the capabilities of the planes on offer.

However, having said that, I can see something like the F60 being very attractive a lot of countries who have traditionally gone for better stuff, especially if ToT and integration of foreign weapons is involved.

Countries like Turkey and Brazil are only just at the drawing board stage with planes that are remarkable similar to the F60 in role, size and capabilities, and they are looking into such projects as a means to try and build their own aviation industries.

If given the chance to buy in on a project that is nearing first flight, it would shave years off their in service dates, massively reduce risks and probably be a great deal cheaper to boot.

Look at the cost spirals, delays and all the black boxes the US has with the F35 and it is certainly possible to see the F60 being more attractive to non-core allied countries of the US, and it would be specially attractive to some middle east countries. There have been a more past cases where the likes of Kuwait and Saudi has gone with Chinese systems when they had the option of top-of-the-line western kit. With Saudi going to Typhoons and strong speculate that the UEA might opt for Rafales, it doesn't look like America has those markets locked down either.

Egypt would be another possible candidate following on from the connections made with the K8 deal, but with the recent power struggles and the US back generals pulling the strikes behind the scenes, maybe the US has that locked down, and I don't think Egypt would be looking to make any big weapons purchases till they have got their house in order first.

The only issue I can see is the F60 is designed by SAC. If it was CAC, well the F60 could be very promising. But I half expect SAC to screw it up somehow.

I am more excited by the F60 because I hope it would spur CAC onto new heights, and if CAC can have the spare capacity to come up with their own medium weight 5th gen counter to the F60, then I can see that as a serious contender to breaking into the kinds of markets I have just listed above. But with SAC's F60, I think they only have an outside shot if past form is anything to go by. here's to hoping all the humiliation CAC have heaped on them with the J10 and J20 wins have motivated them to pull their thump out at SAC with the F60.

If I am China's government, I would leave some space for SAC to breathe and live. Don't just pour everything on CAC.

Originally Posted by SteelBird

If I am China's government, I would leave some space for SAC to breathe and live. Don't just pour everything on CAC.

I agreed, a good healthy competition help sparks the ingenuity in all of them.

The Chilean Air Force Commander, General Rojas, came to HAIG (Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation) on September 27. He attended a demonstration flight of L-15 and visited the center flight test, the assembly and flight control laboratory. He took the opportunity to use the flight simulator L-15: link-1

Back in April, the financial director of Hongdu Aviation Industry Group announced at the 4th International Summit of China's aviation manufacturing industry that the group will export twelve L-15 to South America and Africa this year. He did not specify the country, but indicates that the list price of an L-15 is between 70-80M RMB: link-2

Originally Posted by escobar

The Chilean Air Force Commander, General Rojas, came to HAIG (Hongdu Aviation Industry Corporation) on September 27. He attended a demonstration flight of L-15 and visited the center flight test, the assembly and flight control laboratory. He took the opportunity to use the flight simulator L-15: link-1

Back in April, the financial director of Hongdu Aviation Industry Group announced at the 4th International Summit of China's aviation manufacturing industry that the group will export twelve L-15 to South America and Africa this year. He did not specify the country, but indicates that the list price of an L-15 is between 70-80M RMB: link-2

Congrat China, L-15 will get it first export customer faster than JF-17. Looks like its fully endorse and support by AVIC. While Jf-17 which is a share project with customer show its flaws.

Originally Posted by plawolf

Good point, as in this day and age, it is a rare thing for a fighter deal to be decided only based on the capabilities of the planes on offer.

However, having said that, I can see something like the F60 being very attractive a lot of countries who have traditionally gone for better stuff, especially if ToT and integration of foreign weapons is involved.

Countries like Turkey and Brazil are only just at the drawing board stage with planes that are remarkable similar to the F60 in role, size and capabilities, and they are looking into such projects as a means to try and build their own aviation industries.

If given the chance to buy in on a project that is nearing first flight, it would shave years off their in service dates, massively reduce risks and probably be a great deal cheaper to boot.

Look at the cost spirals, delays and all the black boxes the US has with the F35 and it is certainly possible to see the F60 being more attractive to non-core allied countries of the US, and it would be specially attractive to some middle east countries. There have been a more past cases where the likes of Kuwait and Saudi has gone with Chinese systems when they had the option of top-of-the-line western kit. With Saudi going to Typhoons and strong speculate that the UEA might opt for Rafales, it doesn't look like America has those markets locked down either.

Egypt would be another possible candidate following on from the connections made with the K8 deal, but with the recent power struggles and the US back generals pulling the strikes behind the scenes, maybe the US has that locked down, and I don't think Egypt would be looking to make any big weapons purchases till they have got their house in order first.

The only issue I can see is the F60 is designed by SAC. If it was CAC, well the F60 could be very promising. But I half expect SAC to screw it up somehow.

I am more excited by the F60 because I hope it would spur CAC onto new heights, and if CAC can have the spare capacity to come up with their own medium weight 5th gen counter to the F60, then I can see that as a serious contender to breaking into the kinds of markets I have just listed above. But with SAC's F60, I think they only have an outside shot if past form is anything to go by. here's to hoping all the humiliation CAC have heaped on them with the J10 and J20 wins have motivated them to pull their thump out at SAC with the F60.

Turkey is a level 3 partner of F35 and has a order to assemble 116 of the fighters I highly doubt Turkey would buy F60

Pakistan Navy has made operational Chinese Type-90 AA guns along with integrated Skyguard radars

Terminal X: Analyzing notable additions to the Pakistan Navy

In case you ever wondered why J-7s are still flying from CAC factory runways, the latest photos from Bangladesh indicates that they ordered 16 F-7BGI in 2011 that just got delivered. They probably went for at most $10 million each with everything included. Looks like as long China is willing to produce more F-7s, poor countries are still willing to buy them.

Originally Posted by Lion

Congrat China, L-15 will get it first export customer faster than JF-17. Looks like its fully endorse and support by AVIC. While Jf-17 which is a share project with customer show its flaws.

Funny thing, but L-15 and JF-17 compete for the same market as fighters with the L-15 additionally being a trainer meant for cheap maintenance. Who currentyl buys a 3rd generation fighter is certainly not a high-tech nation.