China and North Korea: What Can China Do?

Originally Posted by ABC78

Opps Sorry bout that hers the link.

U.S.-Asia Relations - C-SPAN Video Library

An interesting discussion. I'll pick out one point: Some in South Korea are afraid that economic integration of the North with China will make re-unification impossible. The next thought ought to be that re-unification depends on China. The US cannot contribute to re-unification except by getting out of the way.

Originally Posted by Red___Sword

I don't know how politically this thread will go, so I would like to apporach this topic more "sensablly":

The location you are from, says "Texas". I am sure you are aware this state used to be part of some-other country, a country actually kind of near-superpower in west hemisphere at that time...

Instead of history BS, "or China could start a coup and put a China-friendly Kim in the throne. I think China has the capability to pull it off." - ever though this kind of things can be happend to your own country? If some foreign power actually makes a move (and success) to "put a puppet on American throne"... It is not saying "history should be set right like this, bla bla bla..."

- It is you guys, talking about "starting a coup at another country", "put a puppet at the throne"... like talk about play video games.

Where did this all come from?? I made the suggestion and got personally attacked? Yes, I live in Texas. Is there anything wrong with that? what does the history Texas have to do with China/NK issue we are discussing? You said you wanted to be sensible, but what you have said made no sense what-so-ever.

Originally Posted by Red___Sword

People pissed, people fights back. Texas people pisssed, so broke up from Mexico - Please expect THE SAME THING when you talk about video game type of "chest-thumbing the guys down there, for us".

I am not sure why you brought up the history of Texas. BTW, I can't understand what you are saying... Who's chest-thumbing and who's going to break off from whom?? I personally don't see any link between Mexico/Texas and China/NK. If I understand your point correctly, you are implying that Texas independence had something to do with "someone attempting to start a coup in Texas (since this is the point for which I brought up about NK and that you are attacking). Texas did not start an independence move because someone wanted to "start a coup in Texas" and pissed off Texans. Texas wanted to become independent because Mexico at the time wanted to abolish slavery and Texas wanted to keep slavery because it was crucial to its economy at the time. It wanted to leave Mexico because of this disagreement. So if anyone was pissed, it would be Mexican govn't, not Texans. And the US at the time had nothing to do with the conflict. It was almost purely a "domestic issue" between Texas and Mexico. No one was messing with Texas. It was purely a decision made by Texans alone. It was also a decision made by Texans alone that they wanted to join the union and become a state of the US. There was NO coup involved what-so-ever.

Even there was, why can't I bring it up again? As you mentioned, it has happened before. If it has, there is no reason to say that it won't happen again, or it shouldn't happen again.

There have been many incidences in China's history when a puppet was placed on the throne and the real power sat behind the curtain. So Chinese are well familiar with all the technical aspect of this matter.

The most important reason for China to support NK is to have a buffer zone between it and US influence. If China somehow claimed NK as its own, then NK loses all value as a buffer zone. NK also serves as a very effective tool to bring the US on to the bargaining table, but that value would be lost if China was seen as the "power behind the throne" of NK, since China would then have to take responsibility for NK's actions.

The usefulness of NK lies entirely on its dysfunctional economy (thereby forcing it to rely on China), and its rogue state (making it a thorn to the US and its allies in the region).

@ vesicles
Indeed the Texans fought for freedom, the freedom to keep slaves. BTW the Texan, who came out of the Southern states of the US, wanted to grow cotton, but they couldn't find enough water for that crop, so they didn't need as many slaves as
they expected.

By treating North Korea as a rogue state the US strengthens the hand of China in the region.

Originally Posted by solarz

The usefulness of NK lies entirely on its dysfunctional economy (thereby forcing it to rely on China), and its rogue state (making it a thorn to the US and its allies in the region).

The value of DPRK to PRC is that it is an independent country that is allied to PRC. The fact that it is not allied to US is a bonus.

Whether its economy is in shambles or whether its economy is prosperous wasn't a particular concern in earlier years, so long as it doesn't collapse into anarchy. This seems to have changed in recent years where concerns about DPRK collapsing due to economic ruin, food shortages, etc seems to be on the rise.

Perhaps this is where PRC came in to try and persuade Kim to undertake serious economic reforms. After all, why have an impoverished ally when you can have a prosperous one? Furthermore, a prosperous ally who can afford to buy modern military hardware from PRC is surely a bonus.

Originally Posted by Spartan95

Perhaps this is where PRC came in to try and persuade Kim to undertake serious economic reforms. After all, why have an impoverished ally when you can have a prosperous one? Furthermore, a prosperous ally who can afford to buy modern military hardware from PRC is surely a bonus.

Exactly. North Korea currently sustains its own survival by using China's resources, and on top of this, tense up situation in the region and expects China to clean up the mess. Compare this to a theoretical North Korea with a vibrant economy, with enough surpluses to buy equipments from China to tie down US, Japan, and South Korea forces. I think it is pretty clear which is better.

Originally Posted by delft

@ vesicles
Indeed the Texans fought for freedom, the freedom to keep slaves. BTW the Texan, who came out of the Southern states of the US, wanted to grow cotton, but they couldn't find enough water for that crop, so they didn't need as many slaves as
they expected.

Yep! In high school and college, all we were taught was Texas fought for freedom and slavery was never mentioned. So brainwashing is everywhere...

What do u think will be the probability of a unified Korea aligning with China??

Originally Posted by vesicles

Yep! In high school and college, all we were taught was Texas fought for freedom and slavery was never mentioned. So brainwashing is everywhere...

@ vesicles
Sugguesting (in your #9 post) "put a puppet on NK's throne..." is actually JUSTIFYING, in any ALTERNATIVE HISTORY, any superpower country, doing the same thing to (not yet put up on its own feet)America, is a "way out" for International Relations.

Me quoting the Texas (alternative) history, is simply hoping you feeling, that "what if you are being chest-thumbed?" (that IF Texas didn't successfully get away from Mexico or get independent or what so ever... only because some 3rd party superpower "INTERVENED", in an alternative and very "realiablly reasoned" history, where "I coup you, you coup him", being very acceptable International Relationship) you pissed? Cause NK people will (eventually) pissed, if what you sugguested has took place in the reality. - Human rights hah?...

We can stop these political BS anytime - as soon as people stops proposing more.

Edit:

Since not many are confortable of "putting his own feet to others' shoes" kind of debate, please ignore the ACTUAL HISTORY OF TEXAS part. Simply put (for you), China, being kind enough, don't freaking bother the idea of "mess other people's life by putting up a puppet to their home", and eventually suffers whatever shit, like what all the WOULD-BE-SUPERPOWER country in the history.

China's "Being superpower for 5000 years minus recent 200 years" of MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE WISDOM, knows better not to mess up other people's life to show your own superpowering. - CAUSE WE WITNESSED OTHER SUPERPOWER DYING, BY DOING THAT, throughout the history.

Originally Posted by myth

What do u think will be the probability of a unified Korea aligning with China??

No alternative is acceptable to China. So that will happen when China has enough aircraft carriers. Two? Three?

Originally Posted by Red___Sword

Me quoting the Texas (alternative) history, is simply hoping you feeling, that "what if you are being chest-thumbed?" (that IF Texas didn't successfully get away from Mexico or get independent or what so ever... only because some 3rd party superpower "INTERVENED", in an alternative and very "realiablly reasoned" history, where "I coup you, you coup him", being very acceptable International Relationship) you pissed? Cause NK people will (eventually) pissed, if what you sugguested has took place in the reality. - Human rights hah?...

That did not stop PRC from supporting the Khmer Rouge government of Cambodia for many years, even though the Khmer Rouge was carrying out systematic genocide of people.

And PRC, being a permanent member of UN, made sure that the UN was not able to do anything to stop the human rights abuses in Cambodia. But I suppose this bit of history isn't mentioned by the media within PRC?

Do people actually read Red__Sword's posts? I try to, but no offense, and I can't understand 80% of what he says.

Anyway, if NK ever became prosperous, what would keep them from turning against China like Vietnam?

Originally Posted by solarz

Do people actually read Red__Sword's posts? I try to, but no offense, and I can't understand 80% of what he says.

Anyway, if NK ever became prosperous, what would keep them from turning against China like Vietnam?

Vietnam turned against China because they sided with the USSR and wanted to be independent, the North Koreans played both sides of the fence during the cold war, the only reason they're so dependent on China now is because the US refuses to deal with them on terms favourable to them, if the US was more willing to compromise and give into the North they would flip on China just like that and play both sides of the fence.

This has been one of the main reasons why the talks and tensions on the Korean peninsula have been going on for so long, because Pyongyang knows that if they can't deal with or gain support from the US they'll become a de facto Chinese colony and utterly dependent on China for trade and survival, they want to increase their options to maintain real independence. But their brinkmanship has had the opposite effect, that and general bad timing with uncooperative American governments since Bill Clinton left office has meant the North has no other choice but to give into Beijing or just spend eternity banging its head against the wall in the vain hope of forcing the uncooperative west and South to recognize it as an equal partner.

Originally Posted by Spartan95

That did not stop PRC from supporting the Khmer Rouge government of Cambodia for many years, even though the Khmer Rouge was carrying out systematic genocide of people.

And PRC, being a permanent member of UN, made sure that the UN was not able to do anything to stop the human rights abuses in Cambodia. But I suppose this bit of history isn't mentioned by the media within PRC?

I am sorry if this is not going anywhere:

The "Rouge" thing is just a title, I still remember when Iran and Cuba is the best friend of some major player, and I still have no clue why don't we blame the "other 4" UN big player, whenever there is someone having an unnatural death on this planet.

I assume McArthur 麦克阿瑟 is a Chinese bad-ass general when he said "The (south) Vietnam maybe is a son-of-B**H, but it is OUR son-of-B**H!"

And honestly, I don't find Singapore is wrong when people have nothing better to do to make accuse on Singapore's human right record.

....

So, this thread can of course like many other forums to "make a decision on what's better to do for North Korea" and all us will automatically having a better neighbor in our community (which is called planet earth).

Congrats to the newly choosen mods, and if you find necessary to close this thread, I am with you.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot to direct answer: Like I post in some-other thread, Chinese people, simply LIKES to review their (our) past experience, the bit of history regarding Cambodia, I personally having had watched a Chinese mainland TV program, of reviewing the mistake of supporting "Red-Khmer-Movement", only because they used the "Red" title.

I guess that's one indirect hint, of why nowadays, we don't really gives a damn, to the "title" thing.