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Old 01-30-2010   #1
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China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

China freezes US military exchanges


China says the deal 'seriously endangers' its national security and reunification efforts with Taiwan [EPA]

Beijing has suspended exchange of visits between the Chinese and US armed forces scheduled for Sunday, over Washington's plan to sell arms to Taiwan, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

The decision was announced on Saturday, just hours after the US was cautioned that its decision to sell $6.4bn worth of weapons to Taiwan would cause "serious damage" to relations and co-operation between the two nations.

He Yafei, the Chinese vice-foreign minister, told Jon Huntsman, the US ambassador to China, that the arms deal could jeopardise bonds with Washington.

The sale "constitutes a gross intervention into China's internal affairs, seriously endangers China's national security and harms China's peaceful reunification efforts," Wang Baodong, a spokesman for the Chinese embassy in Washington, quoted He as saying.

"The US plan will definitely undermine China-US relations and bring about serious negative impact on exchange and co-operation in major areas between the two countries," he said, adding that "China strongly urges the US side to fully recognise the gravity of the issue, revoke the erroneous decision on arms sales to Taiwan and stop selling any weapons to Taiwan".

Taiwan reaction

Taiwan welcomed the US decision, with Ma Ying-jeou, the president, saiying the sales would help the island to further develop ties with China.

"It will let Taiwan feel more confident and secure so we can have more interactions with China," Ma was quoted by Taiwan's Central News Agency as saying.

Christian Ford, the Beijing bureau chief for the US newspaper Christian Science Monitor, said that while tensions between China and the US have been rising, ties between China and Taiwan have been abating recently.

"The two sides have been discussing trade and investment issues ... there are now many more flights from Beijing to Taiwan," Ford told Al Jazeera.

"The actual situation in the streets is not tense. In fact, it's a great deal less tense than a couple of years ago.

"But when you look at relations between and Washington and Beijing, there are definitely some more hick-ups on the horizon" Ford said, mentioning an expected meeting between Barack Obama, the US president, the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan spiritual leader.

"When that happens, Beijing is bound to react."

Renegade province

Beijing regards Taiwan as a renegade province and has vowed to bring the island eventually back under mainland rule, by force if necessary.

The US government, on the other hand, is bound by the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act which obliges Washington to ensure the island is capable of responding to Chinese threats, and to sell defensive weapons to it.

Wang said that the weapons deal violated the 1982 communique between China and the United States, which said the arms sales to Taiwan "will not exceed, in qualitative or in quantitative terms," the level in the years before that.

Philip Crowley, a state department spokesman, said that the arms sales were consistent with the three key communiques between the United States and China when they normalised relations.

In 2008, China suspended most military dialogue with Washington after the administration of George Bush, the former president, approved a $6.5bn arms package to Taiwan that included guided missiles and attack helicopters.
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Old 01-30-2010   #2
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China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

I am expecting the punishment to be more harsh such as beefing up nukes, launching more ASAT or NMD testings, or dumping U.S dollars to create another recession, etc.. Instead what we get is another military exchange suspension. What is that suppose to do.. wow, just stop talking with each other. big deal..
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Old 01-30-2010   #3
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Originally Posted by twodollarss View Post
I am expecting the punishment to be more harsh such as beefing up nukes, launching more ASAT or NMD testings, or dumping U.S dollars to create another recession, etc.. Instead what we get is another military exchange suspension. What is that suppose to do.. wow, just stop talking with each other. big deal..
PRC and US,just like two grasshoppers tied to one cord.....
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Old 01-30-2010   #4
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

Such strong reaction from China is an indication that China is fearing U.S weapons.
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Old 01-30-2010   #5
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

the same reason why US sold advanced weapons in the first place...
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Old 01-30-2010   #6
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

Cutting military exchanges is expected but the sanctions on companies selling arms to Taiwan are new. I don't know how much this will affect Lockheed Martin and other defense-only firms because they don't do much business with China anyways, but if Boeing, General Electric, and other defense-civil firms sell anything they could lose big. Imagine if Boeing was cut off from the Chinese aviation market? The total value of the arms sales to Taiwan is $6 billion, FAR less than the commercial aviation market.

China would be wise to save its big retaliatory measures for bigger provocations, like selling F-16s or diesel submarines. The sales of UH-60 Blackhawk helicopters and PAC-3 anti-missile systems do not significantly alter the balance of power in the Taiwan straits. I believe China's ballistic missile arsenal has little military value because of the missiles' inaccuracy. They constitute a strong psychology deterrent though. China may target 50 military targets around Taipei and watch them all miss, hitting the city proper. Little military damage but a high cost in life and property to Chinese in the city.

Cruise missiles, laser-guided bombs, and naval mines would be the most deadly weapon in China's arsenal should a war occur. As such, F-16s and diesel submarines would force China to spend even faster on its navy and air force opposite Taiwan.

The article mentions designs for a diesel submarine for Taiwan, any idea how that would work? The US hasn't designed or built a diesel sub in fifty years. I remember there was talk of buying them from a European nation, outfitting them with new C4I systems, and reselling them but given European reluctance to anger China I doubt that is feasible. More likely the US would help Taiwan design a submarine to be built in Taiwanese shipyards.
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Old 01-30-2010   #7
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Originally Posted by twodollarss View Post
Such strong reaction from China is an indication that China is fearing U.S weapons.
What do you mean by "strong reaction". "I'm not gonna talk with you!" can hardly be considered a "strong reaction" at all, even for little kids. IMO, China is only playing a leverage game. China tries to get the US to concede somewhere else to "compensate" and get something out of this deal that everyone knew all along that is coming.
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Old 01-30-2010   #8
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Cutting military exchanges is expected but the sanctions on companies selling arms to Taiwan are new. I don't know how much this will affect Lockheed Martin and other defense-only firms because they don't do much business with China anyways, but if Boeing, General Electric, and other defense-civil firms sell anything they could lose big.
I think this is a far more subtle and targetted move than is being widely reported. Yes, US Defence Firms do not do much if any business with the PRC, but the headline company is only the tip of the IceBurg.

Every major defence firm is part of a web of controlling directors and shareholders which interlocks with other non military companies etc. Some of the faces behind the web of Corporations and Blind Trusts are senior Political and other Establishment figures.

What this is saying, is that if you have an interest in a US Military Contractor who does business with Taiwan, you are buying that business at the exclusion of all your other interests that are also currently doing business in or with China.

This will not only hurt those that have such connected interests but also mightily annoy other directors and shareholders of subsequently sanctioned companies that have no connection to the contractors, but who are losing out on account of you.

In other words, China intends to make being associated with any firm that supplies weapons to Taiwan, extremely bad for your wealth and Political Aspirations, cos guess who supplies all that money for election campaigns.
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Old 01-30-2010   #9
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Originally Posted by vesicles View Post
What do you mean by "strong reaction". "I'm not gonna talk with you!" can hardly be considered a "strong reaction" at all, even for little kids. IMO, China is only playing a leverage game. China tries to get the US to concede somewhere else to "compensate" and get something out of this deal that everyone knew all along that is coming.
China is becoming a paper tiger here. China isn't doing much except using strong language to retaliate against U.S which is a joke in my mind. using phrases like "vehemently oppose" or "damaged ties"-I mean come on.. What is that suppose to do. If they really want to seriously punish the U.S, take forceful action.. Obviously, there isn't much China can do to punish the U.S. They cannot dump the dollar because that will in return affect China's economic growth. If they plan to divert their airplane business to airbus instead of Boeing, U.S will retaliate by restrict some of China's imports.
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Old 01-30-2010   #10
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

While most of China's airline industry is privatized, the banks financing aircraft purchases are mostly state-owned, controlled, or affiliated. China does not need an outright embargo on Boeing's planes (which would probably be found illegal by the WTO) to stop sales, those sales would just mysteriously dry up as word came down from the government that you do not buy Boeing's planes. The government banks may not finance such a purchase.

Foreign policy is all about subtle ways to implement your policies. Military force is the least-used tool, even by nations like Israel. Think about how hard the US is trying to get China to sign on to international climate change legislation and an embargo against Iran. Think how hard the US wants China to float its currency. Think how hard the US wants China to give North Korea, Myanmar, and Sudan the cold shoulder. I don't like the idea of using some of the world's worst governments as pawns in foreign policy but it is what it is.

What if China starts selling advancing surface-to-air and anti-ship missiles to Iran? Think there might be a secret deal whereby China will pull those sales if the US pulls sales to Taiwan?
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Old 01-30-2010   #11
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Geographer View Post
Cutting military exchanges is expected but the sanctions on companies selling arms to Taiwan are new. I don't know how much this will affect Lockheed Martin and other defense-only firms because they don't do much business with China anyways, but if Boeing, General Electric, and other defense-civil firms sell anything they could lose big. Imagine if Boeing was cut off from the Chinese aviation market? The total value of the arms sales to Taiwan is $6 billion, FAR less than the commercial aviation market.

China will likely take retaliatory action against Sikorsky Aircraft Corp and Boeing.

FACTBOX-U.S. companies involved in Taiwan arms sales | Reuters

Quote:
FACTBOX-U.S. companies involved in Taiwan arms sales
Jan 30 (Reuters) - China said it would impose sanctions on companies involved in a planned $6.4 billon arms package for Taiwan that the Obama administration sent the U.S. Congress on Friday.

Stocks

Here are the main arms included in the package, and the companies that make them. Other weapons systems are to be opened to bid.

* Sikorsky Aircraft Corp, a unit of United Technologies Corp (UTX.N), would supply 60 UH-60M Black Hawk utility helicopters. The estimated cost is $3.1 billion. United Technologies sells Otis elevators and Carrier brand heating and air-conditioning in China.

* Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) would build 114 Patriot Advanced Capability-3 anti-missile missiles for Taiwan. Raytheon Co (RTN.N) would integrate the systems. The deal's estimated value is $2.8 billion. Neither of these companies is believed to do major business with China.

* Boeing Co (BA.N)'s McDonnell Douglas unit builds Harpoon Block II Telemetry missiles. A proposed sale of 12 of them to Taiwan would be worth about $37 million. Boeing sells commercial aircraft to Chinese airlines. (Sources: Reuters, U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency)
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Old 01-30-2010   #12
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

Geo-politics is such a childish game. How everything is planned and aligned to soften the blow on other things. That's why China gets heat for Iranian nuclear programs when the nuclear reactors the West are so concerned about are from Russia. Nukes is just an excuse. The real problem is they know China's oil deals with Iran could prop-up a continued line of leaders that don't need to kowtow to the West. Co-dependency is a sign of weakness to the West. So they aren't going to deal with the Chinese on anything they really want. "It's my way or the highway." So the tactic is to intimidate China. China isn't the reason why Iran has nuclear power plants so they could use them to process uranium. But blame them anyway as the problem so China's only solution to helping to solve it is by not doing business with Iran. This way the West doesn't have to pay-up with something that China does want from the West. You hear Hillary Clinton using the tactic of publicly saying China is going to be isolated in the world community if it doesn't go along with sanctions. Why? Because some Western China "expert" told her that the Chinese value being accepted by the West. In part true on the most superficial level. But if it were as paramount as they wish to believe, wouldn't China have surrendered to the West's will already if it were the greatest prize any human being could ever imagine? The Taiwan arms deal is more domestic politics than any. China is a safe country that both Democrats and Republicans near-sightedly can beat up on without fear of it affecting their election poll-ratings. Face the facts... poking China's eye... Americans love it. Unlike the other foreign policy issues, Obama doesn't have to worry about China because he too believes China needs the US more than the US needs China. He needs to look strong on foreign policy because literally everything else isn't going his way. This is a great time to do this because the bigger issue ahead is Iran. Any political ramifications at home over selling Taiwan arms will be muted over the Iran issue soon. Since it's China's turn at the head of the UN Security Council, the West, just as in Copenhagen, are going to be using China's term to ram everything through and make China out to be the villain.

The thing is it's a perfect time for China too if Beijing chooses to take advantage. China can cause a major headache for Obama. Obama is weak at home. China can pull the trigger and stop buying US debt and maybe even sell-off some. It's never happened before. If it happens now, the Republicans will pounce because of the economic ramifactions and they will use this against Obama and the Democrats. Republicans and even some Democrats so want Obama to fail so badly. They're going to blame him for forcing China's hand. It happened on his watch. And if China had any insight on American politics, Beijing could threat publicly as a reaction to the Taiwan arms sale, China will sell Iran advanced "defense" systems. You better believe all those that like seeing China getting poked in the eye are the ones that will be whining and crying, "foul!"

Last edited by AssassinsMace; 01-30-2010 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 01-30-2010   #13
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

I don't think very much of it. It's been done before and changed little. A way of making a fuss without damaging China's trade interests with the US.

As for sanctions, we'll see how widely they are applied. If China wants to buy nothing but Airbus planes I'm sure the Europeans will add a suitable premium to their rates.

The real issue is what other weapons will be sold to Taiwan by the current administration and when.
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Old 01-30-2010   #14
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

Obama missed a huge chance to get China's cooperation on Iran and other issues. If I were in his place, my plan would be "Alright, you don't want us to sell to weapons to Taiwan? Then you have to support full sanctions against Iran. Alright, you don't want me to meet with the Dalai Lama? Then let's see some meaningful concessions on climate change." The US has put itself in a position to have leverage on China (something we should enjoy while it lasts) but we're failing to use it because we want to have everything. You can't have everything.
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Old 01-30-2010   #15
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Re: China freezes US military exchanges! What do you think?

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Obama missed a huge chance to get China's cooperation on Iran and other issues. If I were in his place, my plan would be "Alright, you don't want us to sell to weapons to Taiwan? Then you have to support full sanctions against Iran. Alright, you don't want me to meet with the Dalai Lama? Then let's see some meaningful concessions on climate change." The US has put itself in a position to have leverage on China (something we should enjoy while it lasts) but we're failing to use it because we want to have everything. You can't have everything.
Actually Finn, I rather believe that this is precisely that Obama would have offered, but that the PRC rejected it.

After all, how long would the US agree not to sell arms or meet the Dalai Lama? until the next time they wanted something from the Chinese? This is a Strategy in which China has to make constant concessions and the US actually gives nothing away. To me it looks like a very clear PRC policy to confront and contain this US Strategy once and for all.

If the Chinese Government owns the Corporations in China, then the US Corporations own the US Government and the best way to apply pressure to the Government is to hurt the corporations which support it. Of course unravelling the secrets of which Politician or Tycoon own what is complex, but why then why has everybody assumed that the Cyberattacks from China against US Companies has been all about Stealing Technology, when discovering Corporate Interests and Governance can be far more valuable.
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